StarCraft® II

In HotS I'd like to see a 2v2 e-sport scene.

Posts: 4,013
Blizzard, all you really need to do is two things:
Completely redesign the map pool for 2v2 games
Support and legitimize 2v2 sc2 professional play

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching 1v1... but nowhere near as much as I enjoy 2v2. 2v2 is the most fun and dynamic game mode both to play and watch for me, except for the fact that the current map pool is really badly designed. Like... REALLY badly designed.

Please Blizzard, spend some time working on some good quality, good sized 2v2 maps and I bet you'd see a lot more balance out of 2v2 than you do now. Take a little bit of money and hold a few small tournaments for 2v2(maybe have a mini-WWI) and I bet you'd see that people really ARE interested in watching it, as long as the maps support interesting play. The maps really are the core of the problem for 2v2, make some good large well designed maps that encourage team play and discourage some of the rush all ins...

Give it a try, I think you'll like the result.
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It's very difficult to balance 2v2 and 1v1 in parallel. Better maps would certainly help, but a lot of the issue is the fact that the units themselves were designed for 1v1 play.

If there were independent patches for 2v2, then it would certainly be possible. But there are too many units which are perfect in 1v1 but broken as hell in 2v2... Or even unit comps when races are mixed which are incredibly, disgustingly overpowered.
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It's very difficult to balance 2v2 and 1v1 in parallel. Better maps would certainly help, but a lot of the issue is the fact that the units themselves were designed for 1v1 play.

If there were independent patches for 2v2, then it would certainly be possible. But there are too many units which are perfect in 1v1 but broken as hell in 2v2... Or even unit comps when races are mixed which are incredibly, disgustingly overpowered.


I really don't think that would be the case at all. Currently, on some of the privately designed maps, there have been some tournaments run and most of the balance issues seem to work themselves right out. I've watched a few of them. The meta is completely different and certain things can feel overpowered from the perspective of the 1v1 player, but in reality they're just different.

Honestly, I'm completely serious that if they just did the maps they'd see that it's pretty balanced as is. I really don't think any additional balance would be necessary, but only time would tell.
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It's very difficult to balance 2v2 and 1v1 in parallel. Better maps would certainly help, but a lot of the issue is the fact that the units themselves were designed for 1v1 play.

If there were independent patches for 2v2, then it would certainly be possible. But there are too many units which are perfect in 1v1 but broken as hell in 2v2... Or even unit comps when races are mixed which are incredibly, disgustingly overpowered.


hahahahahahaha baneling-archon toilet
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Posts: 185
It's very difficult to balance 2v2 and 1v1 in parallel. Better maps would certainly help, but a lot of the issue is the fact that the units themselves were designed for 1v1 play.

If there were independent patches for 2v2, then it would certainly be possible. But there are too many units which are perfect in 1v1 but broken as hell in 2v2... Or even unit comps when races are mixed which are incredibly, disgustingly overpowered.


hahahahahahaha baneling-archon toilet


Nuclear Toilet is worse :P
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11/11/2012 07:07 PMPosted by Gwaihir
Currently, on some of the privately designed maps, there have been some tournaments run and most of the balance issues seem to work themselves right out. I've watched a few of them. The meta is completely different and certain things can feel overpowered from the perspective of the 1v1 player, but in reality they're just different.


There's a world of difference between a few games and a true eSport. I get that you're passionate about 2v2, and that's cool. If it works out, I think it'd be SICK to have it in addition to 1v1... But I just cant see it happening.

Once you get more games running, people will begin to work out which strategies are totally broken, and those will be abused. The only way to fix those would be to have a patch, lest the entire metagame turn into each team doing the exact same build vs each other. And if you patch it, you risk screwing up 1v1.

So again, the only way it would work is with separate 2v2 and 1v1 games.
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MVP - StarCraft
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Blizzard, all you really need to do is two things:
Completely redesign the map pool for 2v2 games
Support and legitimize 2v2 sc2 professional play

Yes, agreed! It would be smaller than the 1v1 scene by far, and no it wouldn't be perfectly balanced for every team composition, but with some honest maps and decent support, it could actually happen.
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11/11/2012 07:12 PMPosted by IndigO
Currently, on some of the privately designed maps, there have been some tournaments run and most of the balance issues seem to work themselves right out. I've watched a few of them. The meta is completely different and certain things can feel overpowered from the perspective of the 1v1 player, but in reality they're just different.


There's a world of difference between a few games and a true eSport. I get that you're passionate about 2v2, and that's cool. If it works out, I think it'd be SICK to have it in addition to 1v1... But I just cant see it happening.

Once you get more games running, people will begin to work out which strategies are totally broken, and those will be abused. The only way to fix those would be to have a patch, lest the entire metagame turn into each team doing the exact same build vs each other. And if you patch it, you risk screwing up 1v1.

So again, the only way it would work is with separate 2v2 and 1v1 games.


You don't know that for sure. So far the few tournaments that have happened have all worked pretty well, and these have had money on the line. There's no way to know until it happens, and really... what harm is there in Blizzard designing some 2v2 maps(they donh't even have to design them themselves, just host some 2v2 map contests and use the winners) and throwing some money behind a few of the people who WANT to try 2v2 on a competitive level. If it turns out to be completely broken, well people still have the better maps at least and Blizzard has gotten some additional exposure for SC2 AND has also helped to bring a lot of people BACK into the game. Because there are a fairly large number of people who just don't play right now because 2v2 is what they love and the maps are so bad. So they have more exposure, more players, and some goodwill.

If it turns out to be relatively balanced, then they could have all of the above on a MUCH larger scale. It really is a win win for them to at least invest in on a small scale. I'm not saying throw together a full WWI with 250 grand in prizes... but maybe offer IGN or one of the other major E-Sport supporters some prize money if they'll organize the tournament. It doesn't have to be huge, just enough to get some exposure. I bet it'd work. I mean, look at how much money goes into WoW as an e-sport and it's pretty imbalanced most of the time.
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11/11/2012 07:07 PMPosted by Gwaihir
Honestly, I'm completely serious that if they just did the maps they'd see that it's pretty balanced as is. I really don't think any additional balance would be necessary, but only time would tell.
No, IndigO is right on; 2v2 is extremely imbalanced regardless of the map pool, because the game is tweaked for 1v1 play.

I'm fully supportive of 2v2 tournaments and something like "team Grandmaster league", but it will never become a serious e-sport unless the game balance is specifically fine-tuned towards 2v2.

Quick examples of imbalance:
-Sentry FF + Siege Tank (defeated ProTech and his partner with this strategy)
-Zerglings + Marines (not kidding; beaten 4 different Grandmasters with this rush)
-Sensor Sweep/Overlord + Blink Stalker

My friend and I made rank 50 NA in 2v2 through cheese alone, with not a single game turning into macro because of how strong early-game pushes are. Cheese and mixed race unit comps are way too powerful to have any sort of competitive play around it.
Edited by SouLAxiom on 11/11/2012 8:23 PM PST
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Soul you just proved my point. All of those strats are predominately map-related cheese. Due to the layout and terrible design of the current map pool, strategies like that are incredibly strong.
The ling/rine is only strong becuase EVERY 2v2 map has a like 30 second travel time from base to base. This is way too short.
FF/Tank is strong in single entrance non shared maps, and with the tight map layouts its very hard to scout that sort of thing. But if scouted can be easily prevented. Especially in a larger map with more engagement locations. Most 2v2 maps you have almost nowhere you can ambush people unless you already have your army next to their base and can come in behind. But in a map with more engagement locations, that sort of thing can be pretty heavily killed. These maps just don't exist right now in the ladder pool.
Ovie/stalker is also a map layout related strat. Since it only takes 20-30 seconds to get the stalkers TO your enemy base, there is inadequate time to properly react.

A good set of properly designed maps that aren't so tight and small and actually have proper layouts with expansions in defensible yet not too defensible locations would alleviate all 3 of the strats you just listed.
Edited by Gwaihir on 11/11/2012 8:38 PM PST
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11/11/2012 08:36 PMPosted by Gwaihir
A good set of properly designed maps that aren't so tight and small and actually have proper layouts with expansions in defensible yet not too defensible locations would alleviate all 3 of the strats you just listed.
I disagree. Larger maps will not eliminate cheese, but rather make Protoss the only viable race because of Warp Gate tech. All it takes is two forward Pylons for an endless stream of reinforcements to come in.

Also, we're able to do the Ling/Rine Baneling Bust cheese on maps such as Magma Core without any difficulty. All of the new maps would have to be very large because of the veto system too.

I'm a huge fan of 2v2 like you, but I don't see 2v2 happening as an e-sport without game tweaks. :(
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Soul... is 1v1 completely protoss dominated?
No? It's not?

Then why do you tihnk it would be on 2v2?

I don't understand your logic. 1v1 moved away from those really small maps for the same reason, they move the game into a space where it's too short to be fun. Well, the maps in 2v2 are the same size, if not smaller, than the OLD 1v1 maps were. That's why it's so effective. Making larger maps won't make toss op for the same reason it doesn't in 1v1... the race is BALANCED around having that ability. There are counters.
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Posts: 2,313
Wouldn't be that hard to design functional 2v2 maps. Simply have them designed in a "Z" format with destructible rocks blocking a more direct "\" path. With one expansion in the back that's automatically protected from the start, with the other out in front that would have to be defended more out in the open, additionally with only one 'exposed' side that would allow for reapers/blinks to move up.

All choke points would require at least two force fields to block, or if only one force field is required a destructible can be destroyed to expand it.
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i wanna see idra rage quit to a medivac + ultralisk combo
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supporting team games more, sure. 2v2 e-sports however will not happen. You cannot balance multiple modes without changing a lot of variables in the core mechanics.

LoL has actually acknowledged this with their 3v3/dominion and 5v5 modes. The game is balanced around 5v5. 3v3/dominion is not balanced in the least. They have made an attempt to reduce the imbalance though by adding/removing items. However you will not see those in competitive play anytime soon either.
Edited by gerdro on 11/11/2012 9:29 PM PST
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Posts: 5,687
I would love to see 2v2 tournaments as well. There could be a lot of amazing unit combos and teamwork that would really be enjoyable. I know you'd have those conflicts at time though such as ZT/ZP teams where creep starts to interfere with building placements, but I would be excited to see it work.

Blizzard, all you really need to do is two things:
Completely redesign the map pool for 2v2 games
Support and legitimize 2v2 sc2 professional play

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching 1v1... but nowhere near as much as I enjoy 2v2. 2v2 is the most fun and dynamic game mode both to play and watch for me, except for the fact that the current map pool is really badly designed. Like... REALLY badly designed.

Please Blizzard, spend some time working on some good quality, good sized 2v2 maps and I bet you'd see a lot more balance out of 2v2 than you do now. Take a little bit of money and hold a few small tournaments for 2v2(maybe have a mini-WWI) and I bet you'd see that people really ARE interested in watching it, as long as the maps support interesting play. The maps really are the core of the problem for 2v2, make some good large well designed maps that encourage team play and discourage some of the rush all ins...

Give it a try, I think you'll like the result.
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Posts: 1,971
Soul... is 1v1 completely protoss dominated?
No? It's not?

Then why do you tihnk it would be on 2v2?

I don't understand your logic. 1v1 moved away from those really small maps for the same reason, they move the game into a space where it's too short to be fun. Well, the maps in 2v2 are the same size, if not smaller, than the OLD 1v1 maps were. That's why it's so effective. Making larger maps won't make toss op for the same reason it doesn't in 1v1... the race is BALANCED around having that ability. There are counters.
In the scenario of extremely large maps, Protoss has the quickest reinforcement times through warp-in and thus becomes the strongest race at cheese play. It would become Protoss dominated only in 2v2 because cheese is more powerful in 2v2 than in 1v1.

For example, 20 Stalkers vs. 10 Zealots is much stronger than 10 Stalkers vs. 5 Zealots. Do you not agree that the damage output increases significantly? This does not include mixed race unit compositions either.

The 1v1 game is mostly balanced because armies from cheese cannot become deathballs and are easily surrounded by workers. With two players on a team, there are enough resources to make a large clump of units possible. Two cheesing players will always beat two macroing players, but the same cannot be said of 1v1.
Edited by SouLAxiom on 11/11/2012 9:42 PM PST
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A few points I'd like to discuss here:

First and foremost, the large maps comment. There are some large maps out there that were privately made. There have been tournaments on these maps. PP does not always win them. I think the empyrical data is pointing towards your theory as being flawed in some way. I can't say exactly what way, but I can say I have watched some 2v2 tournaments played on maps that are decently designed and it doesn't always end up being 'pp wins because they can reinforce fastest'.

On the subject of cheese, that is primarily a problem due to small maps. Let's say a dual 6-pool 16-20 zerglings on a small map means they get there before you have a chance to really erect much of a defense. ON a large map, 30 seconds extra of travel time + the possibility of having to find you if it isn't a linear 2-base-only map really makes that a lot less powerful. Gives you enough time to get a spine up and defended, or a bunker and wall off, or a cannon, or even a choke with a zealot and 1-2 gateways producing on the back of it. But only if you're adequately prepared and scout. Large maps tend to cause cheese to become more of a precision science than an easy win, just because the extra time means the challenge is on the person DOING the cheese to execute it just right rather than the person being cheesed to have to do everything right to have any chance of surviving. Which is how it should be.

On the subject of balancing, we really can't know until we see it. While it is possible there will be gross imbalances, the difference between balancing something like starcraft and something like LoL is the lack of rpg elements. RPG elements make balance more tricky because you have a completely different dynamic which means that 5 players in stead of 3 players is a COMPLETELY different ball game. Going from 1 to 2 players in sc2 does invoke different strategies, but not to the same extent as it would in a MOBA or even in an RPG pvp scenario. From what I've seen of 2v2 tournaments - which I admit isn't a ton - and from what I've heard of discussion from people who do play 2v2 off the ladder a lot is that the balance is actually pretty close. Things aren't as bad as you might think they would be.
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Nuclear Toilet is worse :P
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Posts: 4,013
One other quick thing I wanted to say before I go to bed... to anyone who says it will 'never be an e-sport'... really, that's just defined by what people enjoy watching enough to want to pay to see. So if it were to reach a point where balance was relatively good(which I believe it could without changing the 1v1 game just through maps), and people enjoyed watching it enough, it could very well become an e-sport. But Blizzard has to take the first step. They have to recognize that people want it. So if you want it, even if you don't 'personally believe it's balanceable' thumbs up this post. Comment with your support. Because if Blizzard sees that there's enough people who have some measure of interest in it, they may well take the steps I've mentioned in this post, and then we all win, don't we?
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