StarCraft® II

Why the league card shouldn't always be used

Posts: 749
Look at professional casters like TotalBiscuit or other major e-sports personalities like JP who hosts the SOTG. TB is what, Plat and JP is around Diamond level. Yet, their understanding of the game and its mechanics are spot on.

You might be thinking to yourself... these are a select few individuals that surround themselves in the Sc2 scene, do research, stay caught up on the meta-game, etc, etc. No, there are normal players within the Sc2 community that have similar understandings of the game yet are Silver, Gold, Plat or Diamond level.

If people on here bash others when they talk about balance because they're low ranked, look at some of the commentators or show hosts. What makes them any better? Why are they allowed to freely discuss balance and myself, not? Just because they can wear a nice suit, have a rich vocabulary and are hired by tournament staff to cast makes them any more skilled than your average joe? Their level of play is identical to thousands of players.

Also, before anyone tries to start a flame war on this. I love TB and I enjoy JP. In fact, there isn't any Sc2 personality I dislike.
Edited by Misery on 11/12/2012 12:30 AM PST
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Posts: 3,739
It's a logical fallacy called special pleading or pleading to a higher power. They assert that because they have X (in this case, league placement) or because you don't have X your argument is invalid. It's a form of attacking the credentials rather than the observation/interpretation and it is a textbook example of a logical fallacy.
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@ to the search function, there is already a thread on this with 400+ posts.
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TB and JP only offers limited insight compared to someone like apollo. TB is more of a play by play caster where hes there to color up the casting so thats its not an analyse-fest
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Look at professional casters like TotalBiscuit or other major e-sports personalities like JP who hosts the SOTG. TB is what, Plat and JP is around Diamond level. Yet, their understanding of the game and its mechanics are spot on.


Unfortunately this simply isn't true. I like TB's casting, but when the not-good (at the game) casters try do predict or talk strategy they get it horribly wrong as often as not. JP doesn't cast (nor does he talk about strategy on SOTG), so he's not a great example. TB, similarly, prefers to cast alongside an analytical caster like Apollo or day9 and just does play-by-play. Also great, also provides no evidence for him having spot-on understanding of the game.

How about djwheat? He did the english cast of the first SC2 OSL. Jesus christ it was atrocious. A majority of the time that he opens his mouth I just think "no, that's wrong" and then it turns out, it is in fact wrong. Or grubby/doa contradicts him right away. Obviously I can't remember tonnes of examples, but I do remember a sentry drop in the main alongside blink stalkers and wheat going "oh, he's brought sentries for guardian shield" when it was obviously to FF the ramp (and, lo and behold, the ramp was forcefielded and not a single GS was given that day).



As for pulling the league card - there's something called the dunning kruger effect. Which basically describes that when you're really inept at something, you're so inept that you don't even know how inept you are. So when someone says "Hey I think this would be a really great idea" (and it obviously isn't), they generally respond to a rebuttal with some sort of inane troll logic that doesn't make any sense. At this point you no amount of reasoning will work, hence league card.
Edited by dainbramage on 11/12/2012 12:57 AM PST
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Posts: 2,193
I find dApollo really knowledgeable when it comes to analyzing strategies. Maybe even more than day9 but then again, I haven't really watched games with day9 casting.
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Posts: 8,097
There are times when it is appropriate and when it isn't

Appropriate:

Bronze leaguer: OMG MUTAS R LYK SO OP NERF PL0X
Anybody with a brain league: No, they aren't, they contain you so that you are scared to move out. As you stay in your base, the zerg takes more bases and eventually overruns you as your expansions have been denied
Bronze leaguer: OMG UR SO RONG

All misspellings are intentional. I do not and will never speak like that

Inappropriate:

Gold or lower leaguer: X strategy vs. Y race could work because of A, B, and C. If your opponent goes for L, then you counter with Q. If he goes for M, you counter with R. [Insert more well-thought out strategy discussions and blah blah blah blah blah]
Masters leaguer: Scrub league, didn't read, this strategy sucks, blah blah blah.
Gold or lower leaguer: Explains the strategy step by step and also uses a Day9 video as back up
Masters leaguer: Shut up noob
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JP is masters and plays random... or at least he was last time anyone mentioned his league.
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11/12/2012 12:35 AMPosted by Enigma
TB and JP only offers limited insight compared to someone like apollo. TB is more of a play by play caster where hes there to color up the casting so thats its not an analyse-fest
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11/12/2012 12:22 AMPosted by Misery
JP is around Diamond level


JP is masters random. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ItmeJP

Also TB is just colour commentary. I don't think he would tell anyone otherwise. He knows he doesn't know everything and always yields to the strategic commentator. TB brings value with his voice and excitement he creates.

Look... The league card shouldn't be used as an insult I agree. It also shouldn't be used to immediately discredit someones statement. It should be respected however.

You don't have a trial and bring amateurs to the stand to testify. You bring experts in their field. There's a reason that rank should be important, but if you are in bronze league and you say something intelligent, then you should absolutely have the right to share your thoughts and feelings. If, however you want to talk about balance at the master and grandmaster level and your diamond and below, you'd better be prepared to back up your claims with multiple, specific instances at the pro level. You should also avoid using anecdotal evidence from your own experiences because they do not apply!
Edited by EllisD on 11/12/2012 8:50 AM PST
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11/12/2012 12:56 AMPosted by dainbramage
Look at professional casters like TotalBiscuit or other major e-sports personalities like JP who hosts the SOTG. TB is what, Plat and JP is around Diamond level. Yet, their understanding of the game and its mechanics are spot on.


Unfortunately this simply isn't true. I like TB's casting, but when the not-good (at the game) casters try do predict or talk strategy they get it horribly wrong as often as not. JP doesn't cast (nor does he talk about strategy on SOTG), so he's not a great example. TB, similarly, prefers to cast alongside an analytical caster like Apollo or day9 and just does play-by-play. Also great, also provides no evidence for him having spot-on understanding of the game.

How about djwheat? He did the english cast of the first SC2 OSL. Jesus christ it was atrocious. A majority of the time that he opens his mouth I just think "no, that's wrong" and then it turns out, it is in fact wrong. Or grubby/doa contradicts him right away. Obviously I can't remember tonnes of examples, but I do remember a sentry drop in the main alongside blink stalkers and wheat going "oh, he's brought sentries for guardian shield" when it was obviously to FF the ramp (and, lo and behold, the ramp was forcefielded and not a single GS was given that day).



As for pulling the league card - there's something called the dunning kruger effect. Which basically describes that when you're really inept at something, you're so inept that you don't even know how inept you are. So when someone says "Hey I think this would be a really great idea" (and it obviously isn't), they generally respond to a rebuttal with some sort of inane troll logic that doesn't make any sense. At this point you no amount of reasoning will work, hence league card.


I was with you the whole way uuntil "...hence, the league card." I don't think you know what 'hence' means, since your imaginary interlocuter failed to understand you and used 'inane logic', it doesn't follow 'the league card' and all that entails (which is next to nothing other than e=peen).

If no amount of reasoning will convince a homeowner that his boiler failed and not poltergeists are inhabiting his house, my bellowing, "I'M A MASTER PLUMBER NOOB!" is not an argument rebutting the poltertgeist theory.
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Posts: 5,096
There are times when it is appropriate and when it isn't

Appropriate:

Bronze leaguer: OMG MUTAS R LYK SO OP NERF PL0X
Anybody with a brain league: No, they aren't, they contain you so that you are scared to move out. As you stay in your base, the zerg takes more bases and eventually overruns you as your expansions have been denied
Bronze leaguer: OMG UR SO RONG

For this argument, I think if they went into detail on why they think mutas are OP it would be different. Like saying for example, they keep you contained to your base a little too well when compared to other harrassment options.

I'm not saying Mutas are OP or anything like that but it really comes down to how the arguments are worded. Bad arguments from people happen regardless of rank so really I think arguing rank is pretty pointless.
Edited by Phil on 11/12/2012 9:10 AM PST
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Posts: 10,507
People don't like admitting they are wrong; I try not to post anything that would REQUIRE that I am masters and so it doesn't really affect what I post.
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Posts: 7,070
11/12/2012 12:22 AMPosted by Misery
Why are they allowed to freely discuss balance and myself, not


You mean... Other than the fact that they're largely ignored? Your premise is good, but suffers from flawed evidence. People ignore basically everyone when we're talking about balance, unless they're GSL winners and they're talking about their own race.
TB is what, Plat and JP is around Diamond level. Yet, their understanding of the game and its mechanics are spot on.
Also untrue. JP/TB have absolutely no idea what's going on. The only casters who are able to truly analyze games are people like Grubby, Day[9] and a few other professionals. Even InControl's ability to analyze is sorely lacking.

Yes, they can scream and yell and say: "Look [insert name here] has below 100 minerals/gas! He's macroing like a god!" But in the end, it's just a play by play.

Sorry, but your argument is flawed due to false evidence.
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Posts: 2,508
There are times when it is appropriate and when it isn't

Appropriate:

Bronze leaguer: OMG MUTAS R LYK SO OP NERF PL0X
Anybody with a brain league: No, they aren't, they contain you so that you are scared to move out. As you stay in your base, the zerg takes more bases and eventually overruns you as your expansions have been denied
Bronze leaguer: OMG UR SO RONG

Inappropriate:

Gold or lower leaguer: X strategy vs. Y race could work because of A, B, and C. If your opponent goes for L, then you counter with Q. If he goes for M, you counter with R. [Insert more well-thought out strategy discussions and blah blah blah blah blah]
Masters leaguer: Scrub league, didn't read, this strategy sucks, blah blah blah.
Gold or lower leaguer: Explains the strategy step by step and also uses a Day9 video as back up
Masters leaguer: Shut up noob


Dood, learn 3 spell and speak real english you delicous potato-brained basketcase.
Edited by Toortanga on 11/12/2012 11:54 AM PST
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