StarCraft® II

No Offracing Allowed

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Agreed.

I don't personally play sc2, because I can't, but I imagine it isn't much fun if you want to off-race for a little while and can't. There are certainly ways to fix this, and I think Blizzard should continue experimenting.
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Granted it IS Beta, and the matchmaking system has been rough, but even if you're right, TheSkunk, that still only allows me to play ONE offrace.

Yeah, you still have a point. I just wanted to correct you on that; as we were told they were separate.
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So you want to play opponents who are roughly at the same skill level as your offracing ability?

Sorry, Doncroft, but the only way this will happen is if you have multiple accounts, or are of roughly the same skill level with each race.
Not much Blizzard can do about that.

Why not?


It would require Blizzard to track each race's MMR independently.
First of all: I'm sure it's possible to do, but it would add a significant amount of load to the servers.

Secondly, it could lead to more smurfing: A player could theoretically manipulate the individual MMR tracking to play easy opponents by alternating races every season (thereby resetting the MMR on the other race).

Thirdly: How would ranking work? If points become universal over all the races, players who play all three races would essentially triple their point score by moving each race up the ladder independently. A player who plays one race would immediately be shortchanged by his single MMR value.

There are plenty of other complications with independent MMRs within a single account.

Cool idea, but I just cant see it working out.
Edited by IndigO on 11/1/2012 3:48 PM PDT
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This is war.

Pick a side.
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It would require Blizzard to track each race's MMR independently.
First of all: I'm sure it's possible to do, but it would add a significant amount of load to the servers.

Secondly, it could lead to more smurfing: A player could theoretically manipulate the individual MMR tracking to play easy opponents by alternating races every season (thereby resetting the MMR on the other race).

Thirdly: How would ranking work? If points become universal over all the races, players who play all three races would essentially triple their point score by moving each race up the ladder independently. A player who plays one race would immediately be shortchanged by his single MMR value.


1. Doable. Blizzard is showing to be open to changes that are "difficult." This would increase appeal to casuals and competitives alike. It would help the game succeed.

2. Smurfing already happens. Opening this would change nothing. At any point, I could tank my single account's ranking down by dropping matches, torture Bronze or Silver League for as long as I please, then rank up at my pleasure. Your second concern is irrelevant, in my opinion.

3. It would require three separate MMRs. Four if you include random. That's it. The leveling system is designed to award more points to people who play all three races, but this shouldn't come at the expense of having too weak opponents for your main race or too strong opponents for you offraces.

This change, I strongly believe, is a MUST for Starcraft II to succeed on as grand a scale as I know we all desire.

This is war.

Pick a side.

Quaint and poetic, but I played all three races in Brood War. Why shouldn't I be able to do so now in synergy with the modern system?
Edited by Doncroft on 11/1/2012 3:54 PM PDT
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Just a FYI, I sent you a message via other methods, Don. :D

3. It would require three separate MMRs. Four if you include random. That's it. The leveling system is designed to award more points to people who play all three races, but this shouldn't come at the expense of having too weak opponents for your main race or too strong opponents for you offraces.

Would you expect it to be separate for teams as well? Then it would be 3 MMRs for each team and for your solo.

Would it place you in three separate leagues? If so, this could get confusing. If not; I could see plenty of issues with that. Place into Grandmaster with your good race, get easy points vs Bronze players on a different race. Thats an extreme example, but I don't think it would work well having three different MMRs and one league, when your MMR determines your league in the first place.
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okay my attempt to explain my idea a little better of how this could work.

First off there will always be smurfs unless people are only able to drop so far in rank or have their ranks only so far apart by race.

Example if each race is ranked differently
Terran Masters
Zerg Diamond
Protoss plat
Random bronze

Would have to figure how well a player an off race with starting a new race? One or two leagues lower max? Even though learning a new race a master player dropping to bronze due to off racing seems kinda crazy.

I also think that if each race is going to be applied to a separate ladder, perhaps Random should not be given a ladder rank. (my previous post idea I was trying to express). Instead the game Randomly assigns what race then seeks out others by that races league.

Summary :

So I am all for the idea of separate ladder per races *if*, all races can only be 2 leagues apart max. Random no longer is laddered just the races themselves.
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So I am all for the idea of separate ladder per races *if*, all races can only be 2 leagues apart max. Random no longer is laddered just the races themselves.

Agreed. Added to the OP.
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This is war.

Pick a side.
But is there truly a right, or a wrong? For what is wrong? And who are we to decide what it is? Do we not associate the term wrong with something that violates our own culture and beliefs? And thus, why must I pick a side when there are, in fact, two of them, each with their own advantages?
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1. Doable. Blizzard is showing to be open to changes that are "difficult." This would increase appeal to casuals and competitives alike. It would help the game succeed.

2. Smurfing already happens. Opening this would change nothing. At any point, I could tank my single account's ranking down by dropping matches, torture Bronze or Silver League for as long as I please, then rank up at my pleasure. Your second concern is irrelevant, in my opinion.

3. It would require three separate MMRs. Four if you include random. That's it. The leveling system is designed to award more points to people who play all three races, but this shouldn't come at the expense of having too weak opponents for your main race or too strong opponents for you offraces.

This change, I strongly believe, is a MUST for Starcraft II to succeed on as grand a scale as I know we all desire.


1. Fair enough.

2. Fair enough.

3. Totally not the point. I'm not talking about the leveling system, I'm talking about Ranks. I.E. I'm rank 15 Diamond.
If you separate MMRs, then I could play up to my current MMR with Terran, gaining X amount of points. I could then play up to my current MMR with Protoss (playing weak opponents and winning a TON), gaining X amount of points. I then could play up to my current MMR with Zerg, gaining another X amount of points.
At the end of the day, I'd have 3X amount of points, therefore throwing me into a nearly unsurpassed point value within my league.
I understand that people don't care about rank a lot, but some people do. People who play one race will immediately no longer be able to compete with people who play three races.
So I could be forced into Rank 100 Diamond, but still be slaughtering Rank 1 Diamonds, or even Rank 1 Masters. The entire league ranking system would lose it's meaning.

Riddle me that, Doncroft.
Edited by IndigO on 11/1/2012 4:02 PM PDT
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Having a separate ranking per each race has been mentioned and asked for by the community countless times and I'm actually surprised Blizzard has never even acknowledged the concern.

+1 for sure, I'm totally for it.

Also, I'm really glad that you, Doncroft, created this thread. Perhaps the design team will consider this something worthwhile and I'll be really curious to hear their response.


Secondly, it could lead to more smurfing: A player could theoretically manipulate the individual MMR tracking to play easy opponents by alternating races every season (thereby resetting the MMR on the other race).


Perhaps Blizzard could implement a system that doesn't allow your MMR to deviate more than +/- 2 leagues. Example: If you're Diamond as Protoss, you can't be playing lower than Gold as Zerg or Terran. Not sure if a system like that would or could ever exist.
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1. Fair enough.

2. Fair enough.

3. Totally not the point. I'm not talking about the leveling system, I'm talking about Ranks. I.E. I'm rank 15 Diamond.
If you separate MMRs, then I could play up to my current MMR with Terran, gaining X amount of points. I could then play up to my current MMR with Protoss (playing weak opponents and winning a TON), gaining X amount of points. I then could play up to my current MMR with Zerg, gaining another X amount of points.
At the end of the day, I'd have 3X amount of points, therefore throwing me into a nearly unsurpassed point value within my league.
I understand that people don't care about rank a lot, but some people do. People who play one race will immediately no longer be able to compete with people who play three races.

Riddle me that, Doncroft.

Oh. Well you would have three separate ladder ranks in 1v1, of course. I assumed you would infer that. Your concern doesn't apply.
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[quote]
3. Totally not the point. I'm not talking about the leveling system, I'm talking about Ranks. I.E. I'm rank 15 Diamond.
If you separate MMRs, then I could play up to my current MMR with Terran, gaining X amount of points. I could then play up to my current MMR with Protoss (playing weak opponents and winning a TON), gaining X amount of points. I then could play up to my current MMR with Zerg, gaining another X amount of points.
At the end of the day, I'd have 3X amount of points, therefore throwing me into a nearly unsurpassed point value within my league.
I understand that people don't care about rank a lot, but some people do. People who play one race will immediately no longer be able to compete with people who play three races.

Riddle me that, Doncroft.
What if we had separate leagues?

Riddle me that, Johny my boy!

Edit: Doncroft, did you just ninja me?
Edited by Dacder on 11/1/2012 4:04 PM PDT
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11/01/2012 04:03 PMPosted by Dacder
Edit: Doncroft, did you just ninja me?

Silent as the night, deadly as coral snake venom.
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11/01/2012 04:04 PMPosted by Doncroft
Edit: Doncroft, did you just ninja me?

Silent as the night, deadly as coral snake venom.
I shall be most alert tonight then, Doncroft, for shall a ninja kill me? Nay, for I shall die in glorious battle, like my forefathers, and all that are honorable.
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Posts: 7,070
1. Fair enough.

2. Fair enough.

3. Totally not the point. I'm not talking about the leveling system, I'm talking about Ranks. I.E. I'm rank 15 Diamond.
If you separate MMRs, then I could play up to my current MMR with Terran, gaining X amount of points. I could then play up to my current MMR with Protoss (playing weak opponents and winning a TON), gaining X amount of points. I then could play up to my current MMR with Zerg, gaining another X amount of points.
At the end of the day, I'd have 3X amount of points, therefore throwing me into a nearly unsurpassed point value within my league.
I understand that people don't care about rank a lot, but some people do. People who play one race will immediately no longer be able to compete with people who play three races.

Riddle me that, Doncroft.

Oh. Well you would have three separate ladder ranks in 1v1, of course. I assumed you would infer that. Your concern doesn't apply.

It's actually four, due to Random.
So now we have sixteen (4 races*4 leagues (1v1, 2v2, etc)) separate MMRs for each account AND sixteen separate League ranks per account?
As Skunk said:
11/01/2012 03:56 PMPosted by TheSkunk
this could get confusing.


Don, if you could come up with a better, more clever solution... I would be TOTALLY for this change. It's a very cool idea... But there are simply too many problems with the current idea for me to support it. And I doubt Blizzard will either.
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Posts: 5,878

Oh. Well you would have three separate ladder ranks in 1v1, of course. I assumed you would infer that. Your concern doesn't apply.

It's actually four, due to Random.
So now we have sixteen (4 races*4 leagues (1v1, 2v2, etc)) separate MMRs for each account AND sixteen separate League ranks per account?
As Skunk said:
11/01/2012 03:56 PMPosted by TheSkunk
this could get confusing.


Don, if you could come up with a better, more clever solution... I would be TOTALLY for this change. It's a very cool idea... But there are simply too many problems with the current idea for me to support it. And I doubt Blizzard will either.
What if we had a separate MMR for each race in the unranked option?
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So now we have sixteen (4 races*4 leagues (1v1, 2v2, etc)) separate MMRs for each account AND sixteen separate League ranks per account?


How about it only applies to 1v1. No need to have separate league ranking in team games IMO.
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Solution: when you go to play Unranked, you should be able to select a skill range (league) where you would like to play. That way you will be paired against other players who also feel they are at that league, and you can work from there.

Restrictions: You can go to any league below your own on Ranked, and only one higher.

Example: Im a Gold Terran. If i want to try Protoss, i can go to unranked to try it out. If i think i am at a bronze skill level with protoss, then i can click bronze, and i fight other bronzies. But those bronzies arent necessarily bronze on the ladder.

I realize that people might smurf if given the option to fight against bronzies whenever they want, which is why im open to suggestions on how to limit this. Maybe a....50 game grace period per race?
Edited by SunnyD on 11/1/2012 4:11 PM PDT
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11/01/2012 04:07 PMPosted by IndigO
Don, if you could come up with a better, more clever solution... I would be TOTALLY for this change. It's a very cool idea... But there are simply too many problems with the current idea for me to support it. And I doubt Blizzard will either.

There has to be a way to get evenly matched opponents while offracing through the match system on one account. That's all I'm saying. This needs to happen, one way or another. We simply don't have the option as things are now.

11/01/2012 04:10 PMPosted by SunnyD
Restrictions: You can go to any league below your own on Ranked, and only one higher.

11/01/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Dacder
What if we had a separate MMR for each race in the unranked option?

Good ideas. See, IndigO, the thread is already generating a productive and noticeable brainstorm. Mission part 1 accomplished.
Edited by Doncroft on 11/1/2012 4:12 PM PDT
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