StarCraft® II

Got toyed with, any ideas on what to do?

Posts: 113
http://sc2shr.com/yq

So a couple days ago I was going against a zerg, after a long losing streak.

He kept me contained, kept making a lot of roaches, and then to add in an insult teched up to Broodlords and ultras while having over 10,000 minerals banked...

My question is, What is a good strategy to use against a zerg that happens to Double fast expand or a way to deny zerg's fast expand (which they appear to do every single game I play), and if so a play order to execute to punish them...

Perhaps even tell me how to suspect he has gained a fifth or a sixth, as I have never played an opponent who expanded so readily...

I've been getting tired of constantly losing to zerg, and I just want to hit them back hard.
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Posts: 1,981
haha join the club, even now i have trouble with roaches denying my third. Best you can do, get out tanks.

Tanks do great against roaches as long as they have sufficient buffer. Meaning dont let the roaches in range of your tanks, and spread them out. make sure you have sufficient units in front of your tanks as well

Do you play mech, bio or marine tank?
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Posts: 113
I went mech, tanks, thors, with some marines and marauders towards the midgame. He countered that with infestors and more roaches, and some zerglings.

But that doesn't answer my problem... The zerg in question expanded to 3 bases before I had even secured my second.

What I am trying to find out is how to destroy or deny or punish a zerg when he double fast expands, fast expands, or harrassment strategies since I could have handled his roaches, I just couldn't handle the rate he was popping them out at.
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Posts: 1,059
I'm not great at TvZ, but I do well in the early and mid-game. One thing I do, if zerg is going hatch first, is walk my first marine and an SCV over to the Zerg Base and start a One or two marine bunker rush, usually at the natural. Sometimes (in gold league), Zerg doesn't have vision of their natural so the bunker is finished before they see it usually resulting in a hatch kill.

The other thing that sometimes happens is that they don't have a pool finished yet so they have to use Drones to defend, resulting in a good number of drone kills. Even if they have a pool, they are going to build 6-8 lings, which is, as far as economy goes, is the same as killing 3-4 drones. The most common result is that you get them to make some lings and pull drones to defend the bunker while you walk the marine back to your base.

I also often get a nearly free kill at the third by keeping an SCV where it can see the expo and then building a bunker just out of sight range for the growing hatch and moving 4 marines across the map along the safest and sneakiest path I can find. Once the marines are in the bunker they have to get a good number of banelings or roaches there fast or that hatch is going down.

For any of this to work, you need map control. Hellions are, arguable, the best way to establish and maintain map control versus Zerg. But Banshees or small squads of marines with medivacs will also do the job.
Edited by BrockLanders on 11/2/2012 10:08 AM PDT
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Posts: 1,981
here is a replay of a match i just played

http://drop.sc/270347

not exactly top skill meching, but you get the idea.

1 rax fe is pretty safe, as long as you have a bunker up, in this case i put two up, delay the third and get fast marauders because i scouted quick roaches. 3 hatch is the standard for zergs, so its hard to punish, but if he goes for a third before 6-7 then you can punish him a bit. Scout the third, put down a bunker in range of it but not right next to it and put some marines in it. His hatch is going to finish and he will find a bunker next to it killing it.

Notice how i use banshees to deny him if he tries to get off 3 base, and also notice how i send hellions to all the different bases.

Ok so i watched the replay. Basically what will get you very far is learning build orders. A good safe one is hellion banshee into 3cc. Basically what i did in the replay, but i added a few marauders to compensate for the roaches.

If your on two and hes on three bases thats fine, but you want to expand to your third once you feel your tank count is high enough.

As a mech player you really dont want to attack him till your almost maxed, mech is VERY strong once you get maxed out.

Now few general tips.
-use the same scv after your first depot to also build the barracks and second depot, that way your scvs have more mining time. I usually scout around 17 or so. Sending an scv out that early lowers your economy by 10%.

-You want to commit to mech, so dont build more than 1 barracks, and only build a few marines and maybe 2 or so marauders if he goes roaches. I wont go into detail about hellion banshee build because a simple google search or if you google Day9's video he describes it well, i would really recommend that build.

-UPGRADES. upgrades are basically what make a mech army, so you want to lay down double armories after your on 2 bases. At this point you should have 1-2 banshees and some hellions as well. Then put down 2 more factories and get out two thors, after that go for tanks to deal with roaches. Once you have a good count of blue flame hellions, tanks, thors and a few banshees, you can take your third.

Also, maps you want to veto. Definitely codemned ridge, its very hard to win with mech against a zerg on condemned ridge, the map is just too big. I also dont like Tal darim.
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Posts: 1,736
I went mech, tanks, thors, with some marines and marauders towards the midgame. He countered that with infestors and more roaches, and some zerglings.

But that doesn't answer my problem... The zerg in question expanded to 3 bases before I had even secured my second.

What I am trying to find out is how to destroy or deny or punish a zerg when he double fast expands, fast expands, or harrassment strategies since I could have handled his roaches, I just couldn't handle the rate he was popping them out at.


It depends on the map. Some maps you cannot do anything to stop the Zerg from taking a fast third. Let me define a fast third in ZvT so we are talking about the same thing. A fast third is one that happens 6 minutes or earlier. A normal third timing is about 8 minutes. A zerg taking a third by 8 minutes is the same as you taking your natural at around 4 minutes.

If your goal is to play mech then you shouldn't worry too much about the Zerg taking the third. Your still trying to build up your army. However what you can do is when you get your 4-6 hellions is to push out to the third and attack it. You're trying to force the Zerg to make Zerglings instead of drones. At this point if you can keep him busy you really need to try to secure your third. I'm not for certain on the exact timings and some Terran players can help you with that, but a Terran on 6 gasses playing mech is pretty formidable and it doesn't matter if the Zerg has 3 bases or 6 bases you can win.

EDIT:

Everything that Brock said is true, but I wouldn't recommend doing it. Yes you will get wins off that kind of play, but as you move up the bracket it will work less and less and you are also hamstringing your own economy to do these things. As BlackDeath says, "Play standard it wins".

EDIT 2:

One last thing. If the Zerg does go for a quick third he couldn't have taken gasses so he won't have speedlings. Just make sure you don't lose your Hellions. It is impossible to engage Hellions off of creep with slow lings. They'll just get roasted.
Edited by Rathelm on 11/2/2012 10:48 AM PDT
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Posts: 113
Thank you Brock and Rathelm for your responses, I'll keep both of your advice in mind.

I don't expect to be a great player, but it would be nice to wipe the stupid grin off of my zerg opponents face, and make him actually have to work for his victory rather than screw around.
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Posts: 3,577
despite popular belief, hellions are still great in TvZ.
Throw in a few banshee later give you map control.

Then you can do whatever you want
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