StarCraft® II

I struggle heaps with static defence

Posts: 503
I always get these terran and protoss tutlers with too much static defence. Things like lots of missile turrets, or lots of seige tanks, or lots of bunkers. And protoss with lots of cannons and a wall.

Even if i outmacro and just start throwing units at the door, it never seems to effectively end the match. Otherwise I end up wasting too many attempts and his deathball just rolls over me

What can zerg do against such insanity?
I've tried multi pronged attacks, Ive tried nydus, ive tried mix of air & land, ive tried zergling swarm waves, but static defence always seems to trump whatever I can do.
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Posts: 3,484
i hear ya. ill see some terrans throw up turrets all over their bases when i dont even have a spire and they are still keepin up with me in economy and army supply. honestly i dont play aggrssive anymore at all. i feel like im forced to be defensive till i got like 40 infestors so that i can actually do some damage
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Posts: 10,227
if he just spams static defense and isnt moving just mass expand, it costs alot more than you think to put all that up so you should be safe.
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Posts: 67
Tech up, use broods to kill turrets and tanks
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Posts: 3,950
Take the map. Make 80 drones. Mass 200/200 of 3/3 BL by the 14 minute mark. That is what is done vs a turtly opponent (or something similar--just take the map and get a ridiculous economy, from there it is your choice on how to defeat them as its ez pz).
Edited by tBz on 11/17/2012 9:59 PM PST
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Posts: 413
If you ever scout a base with like 8 turrets, you know how much minerals that is? 1250, that is 4 hatcheries, and you can out macro him easily.
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Posts: 67
3/3 mass Muta go through turrets pretty fast. I notice a lot of turret builder like to clump them together in lines, which means there's probably a big somewhere else, probe and find it.

I don't know why you're even worried about static defense, unless it's killing SCV's, if you're policing expansions with Muta or lings, and you have him confined to his base, its just a matter of time till he can no longer reinforce.

In this game if you're defending, and not attacking, you're losing - the only rationale behind spending a lot on static defense is so you can safely leave your base and attack, or try to kill the rush so you can counter before he reinforces - if he's just turtling, it's just a matter of time.

About the only reason I attack a main is to kill workers or critical buildings: Cybernetics Cores, Armories, etc., so he can't make Thors or Stalkers, and put him behind on upgrades - take out the Engineering bay and he can't make turrets.

Use Muta, take out a couple turrets, and fly off, check expos while they heal up, or make a bunch of queens at a base and use them to heal your Muta, then go do it again.

Once you have an area cleared, check back soon though, kill SCVs when they try to replace the turrets, that will run him out of minerals faster.

While you're doing that, or you do happen to get you're Mutas wiped out, which happens, you can hit him with little ling or Bane rushes to keep him running around and defending - but Muta are fast enough you can hit one side, fly a wide arc, clear around to the other side and hit that while his Marines are just getting to the first site.

But you can do all that while maintaining a decent sized ground out of range, protecting your base and/or expansions.

If he shows up with Marines, look for choke points, and try to get him to run through: if he's got a lot of buildings, and has to run between them, the marines have to go single file, and can't mass up to attack you - I've wasted mass marines with a middling batch of Muta because he had to squeeze them through a choke point, and there were never more than two or three at a time in firing range.

Take advantage of the Muta bounce attack: line your targets up, and you'll wear down whatever is behind whatever you're focusing fire on - i.e., if there's a pylon and cannons, line a pylon up behind a cannon, and by the time you kill the cannon, the pylons shields will be already gone, take out the pylon and the other cannons will be unpowered.

Same with lines of turrets, although you don't want to take on mass turrets with anything less than big batch of 3/3's, but once you do clear out a landing zone you can do a Nydus drop and use b/lings, roaches, etc. to clear out the turrets while you protect the worm with your Muta - you might have to put them on hold, the real downside to Muta is how aggressive they are, if you're not watching they'll fly into a bunch of turrets in a hearbeat.

I prefer to use Broods for this, with Muta support, keeping them out of turret range, but ready if he has Vikings, or to help thin out any Marines/Marauders that show up to kill the tunnel, tanks etc. Tanks are absolutely helpless against Muta, and I've ever seen a base where you can pack more than 2 or 3 turrets into a tank position.

There's a reason mass Muta is a popular build, even though they're less effective against Thor's or large batches of ranged infantry: you can really mess up a base, you can scout and get and get a good idea what he has and where they are, kill all his workers, take out his infrastructure and static defenses, and then finish him with ground - and as I say, large groups of 3/3's will rip though almost any static defense with proper micro, and half the time they give up after you killed all their workers anyway.
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Posts: 67
I'm not big on Infestors at the moment, but you can use a scout, Muta, changelings, etc. get line of sight and fling infested Terran's up a cliff, or use the neural thingy to use his own tanks to blow up his turrets.

You just need to scout and find a spot that's out of range of his tanks initially, and walk those infested Terrans in, you can get an Overlord or Nydus drop in once you a establish a beachhead.

A couple of times I've used overlord drops with Queens as a Cheese in the early: generate creep, drop a Queen and a couple of drones, make several creep tumors and get the Queen back out, then creep out the whole base and make spine crawlers with the drones if possible, and he can't make any static defenses, lol.

Works better against the Protoss, they can't scan, and I don't use it much, the transport upgrade is 200 gas, and Nydus are are a better value, IMO.
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Posts: 67
Another option is an Overseer harrass, use contaminate to slow them down, while you build up, i.e., don't wait till they build a lot of static defense, catch them in the act - once you clear out the early static defense, you can totally own them with Muta micro.
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Posts: 67
In short, Muta micro can be devastating against defense by preventing them from building it in the first place - in my experience, you should go as soon as you get your first batch of Muta, even it's like 5 - quite often they will only have ground AA which you can outrun, and you will catch them in the act of building turrets, kill the SCVs, then kill the turrets before they're completed - wait 5 minutes for more Muta and it's often too late.

You need to keep the pressure on though, as this is certainly one way to guarantee they will make a lot of static defense, which as several people have pointed out, takes a lot of minerals and limits their ability to make mobile units, which is mainly an issue in the first 10 to 12 minutes of the game, if you mineral block early, it will be hard if not impossible for them to catch up - that's the rationale behind the 6 pool, and/or early ling rush.

Here's a tutorial on Overseer harrass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMY6ueyD0yY
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Posts: 377
When I was taking lessons from Retakan, we did the 200/200 20 minute drill, to teach me macro. The object was to go up against a Hard AI and stay alive while getting to 200/200. Then go kill him before 20 minutes. He would do it in 13 minutes. My best was 17 minutes.

I asked to play him and he promised to play at a bronze level.
I did a 15 hatch. I put a ling on the watch tower and one in front of his base.
I droned up and went mass roach.
I saw that he had three bunkers at his natural and his main was ringed with turrets. I scouted the map and he had no third and did not move out or harass.
At 18 minutes I went for it.
He had 8 Ravens and 8 Thors. The bunkers at his natural were filled with Marauders backed by 3 tanks and 3 turrets. The rest of his army was Marines and Marauders and 2 Medivacs.
Needless to say he crushed me. He Auto-turreted my main and the rest of the army marched across and killed my natural and me.

So do the stuff the others have said but most importantly scout.
My starting overlord finds him and stays near his main.
My 17 ovie parks at his natural ready to suicide in to scout. The other is there if needed.
If you know what he is doing then you can plan what you can do to kill him.
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Posts: 651
I always get these terran and protoss tutlers with too much static defence. Things like lots of missile turrets, or lots of seige tanks, or lots of bunkers. And protoss with lots of cannons and a wall.

Even if i outmacro and just start throwing units at the door, it never seems to effectively end the match. Otherwise I end up wasting too many attempts and his deathball just rolls over me

What can zerg do against such insanity?
I've tried multi pronged attacks, Ive tried nydus, ive tried mix of air & land, ive tried zergling swarm waves, but static defence always seems to trump whatever I can do.


macro up, get tons of banked money, tons of larva, upgrades etc

when he moves out, move into him...do *smart* damage then pull back a bit and remax...he'll warp in more and start moving again..rinse repeat. try to keep him on only 2 or 3 bases...if he's on 4, use nydus, drops and *smart* run by's to hassle him
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Posts: 1,848
Mass expand while scouting if you can then tech to beat what ever he has, if he has nothing just make brood lord infestor and win
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Posts: 465
Lol I feel you. But honestly you just have to get better at the mechanics and micro of the game. Why don't pros turtle up with turrets everywhere? Because it makes their army weaker and any competent opponent(especially zerg) will be ready to remax the instant they move out.

If you honestly cannot beat him with superior mechanics - such as using broodlords when he turtles to draw him out, and have corruptors, infestors to fungal/kill any vikings, ravens. Then if he does have a good sized deathball fight him in the open and remax. Fight again, remax. At some point if he doesn't come out, he'll run out of money and while you remax, he's dieing.

I myself find turtling players hard to beat, but I do remember beating a terran who sat on 2 base and turtled and I just waited the game out and starved him. GL
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Posts: 67
Yeah, the problem is the zerg has no long range unit like a siege tank or a Colossus to take things out at a distance, other than Broods, and as I say, it's 20 minutes and 1000 gas to get just one, and meantime there's a ground war to fight.

I liked those things in SC, Defenders or Guardians, or whatever they were called, you morphed two Muta - they were somewhat expensive and slow as hell too, but it didn't take 20 minutes to get 'em.
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