LOL Blizz balance

Posts: 892
Infesters are just too strong. They are a valid counter to almost everything. Very poorly designed unit.
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Posts: 3,501
11/18/2012 12:12 AMPosted by Nasreth
If something changes with Zerg, Terran is going to continue having a difficult time with Protoss, and Zerg is just going to start losing everything again.

The reason Zerg is having a difficult time with Protoss is that Protoss Robo all-ins are really effective if you don't have Infestors yet. Nerf the infestor a bit and buff the hydra or something, and things look a lot better. I still don't know why Blizzard is so reluctant to make the Hydra not suck.
Clearly OP 2 base all-ins versus OP BL/infestor ball of doom is silly. But Blizzard is a bit slow, so you have to be patient with them.
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Posts: 10,665
11/17/2012 11:50 PMPosted by Nightwolf
or maybe zerg units are, you know, useful? Infestors are just so good theres no point to make anything else. thats what put zerg under the delusion that they "need" them.


Zergs werent doing anything preinfestor craze. They had the fewest wins in mlg history. Your choices were roach hydra which is just bad, or ling bling muta which can work but muta harass is dying if not dead already. Terran play is macro heavy now and everything in that comp just dies outright. Can zerg win without infestors? yes absolutely, but not often enough to call in balanced. ling bling vs bio takes up to much larvae to be effective to heavy marine production for example.

back then zergs never really transitioned into BLs and ultras, look infestors will be fine if they are nerfed to the point if they are a SUPPORT unit (like 2-6) in your army.
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Posts: 1,981
11/17/2012 10:07 PMPosted by tBz
actually no, no they dont. with zergs ability to quickly secure their third they easily get a strong mid game, alot of zergs I play dont even make infestors til the late game. but protoss make sentries early game every game I play because they HAVE too.


Without infestors zerg would lose 90% of their ZvP due to the mid-game 7gate robo. I will repeat: Zerg *needs* the infestor to survive the mid game.

EDIT: Yes, hydra's are an option to hold off a 7gate robo, but a good protoss just backs out and gets collosi and which point in time the zerg loses. With infestors it allows Zerg to survive the 7gate robo and then still be competent vs colossi. If Blizzard is to nerf the infestor they *need* to buff the hydra or nerf the colossi, one of the two, take your pick.


Were not talking about removing the infestor completely. Zerg needs the infestor? well great, it can have the infestor. But does it need the infestor in its current state? I think not.

Personally i think the answer is staring bliz in the face, buff hydras, nerf infestors.

With a buffed hydra with good range that would make zergs mid game stronger, and zerg lategame weaker.
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Posts: 607
It's sad how long it took blizzard to nerf something that was so obvious.
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Posts: 1,362
11/17/2012 06:33 PMPosted by Zerglor
No, Zerg units are really good, the reasons zergs rely on mass infestors is not because the other units are bad, its because infestors are better. I have lost to infestorless plays before


are u high? zergs need infestors cause everything else is completely useless. their t3 units are essentially useless in a deathball and ling/roach are shredded by mmm or any toss deathball. It's like having a protoss trying to win a game entirely on gateway units without being able to 4 gate.
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Posts: 5,655
11/17/2012 08:15 PMPosted by Nasreth
The amount of marines you can pump out with 3 mining bases and 3 MULES is absurd. Any "good" engagement for zerg is never really that great, because you're still trading gas (banelings) for minerals (marines) and Terran is mining 4/3 as many minerals than you with 10 fewer harvesters and 1 less base.


Yup. I think the biggest issue is that if you want to engage, say, 5 marines you have to engage the entire seigeline, because ling/bling is short-ranged and the tanks/marines are long ranged.

They need to buff the hydralisk IMO. Hydras could engage a small portion of the terran army without having to engage it all, with similar effectiveness to Infestors, but wouldn't lock down micro like infestors do.
Edited by tBz on 11/20/2012 12:04 PM PST
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Posts: 5,655
11/18/2012 08:29 AMPosted by Hassan
It's sad how long it took blizzard to nerf something that was so obvious.

Are you referring to the 3 pylon ramp block? Zergs have been unfairly loosing to that for two years now, and Blizzard STILL hasn't fixed it in WOL. Tournaments fixed it literally years ago--its so incredibly obvious that its OP in favor of Protoss, and yet Blizzard still lets it happen on WOL ladder?
Edited by tBz on 11/20/2012 12:07 PM PST
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Posts: 3,501
They need to buff the hydralisk IMO. Hydras could engage a small portion of the terran army without having to engage it all, with similar effectiveness to Infestors, but wouldn't lock down micro like infestors do.

I agree.

Are you referring to the 3 pylon ramp block? Zergs have been unfairly loosing to that for two years now, and Blizzard STILL hasn't fixed it in WOL

Yes, I still don't understand why not.
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Posts: 3,485
11/20/2012 12:03 PMPosted by tBz
The amount of marines you can pump out with 3 mining bases and 3 MULES is absurd. Any "good" engagement for zerg is never really that great, because you're still trading gas (banelings) for minerals (marines) and Terran is mining 4/3 as many minerals than you with 10 fewer harvesters and 1 less base.


Yup. I think the biggest issue is that if you want to engage, say, 5 marines you have to engage the entire seigeline, because ling/bling is short-ranged and the tanks/marines are long ranged.

They need to buff the hydralisk IMO. Hydras could engage a small portion of the terran army without having to engage it all, with similar effectiveness to Infestors, but wouldn't lock down micro like infestors do.


yea but hydras get owned so hard by that siege line before they can touch anything becuase tanks and collosi have huuuuuge range and kill hydras in mass.
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Posts: 3,485
11/18/2012 08:01 AMPosted by Zerglor
back then zergs never really transitioned into BLs and ultras, look infestors will be fine if they are nerfed to the point if they are a SUPPORT unit (like 2-6) in your army.


thats cuz ultras are ultra bad and broodlords need specific slow support. corruptors are only good vs air units. Hydras are not very good vs any standard comp and melt in a blink. Only real option would probably be roach,corruptor, brood lord with infestor support if fungal takes to bad a nerf. which is a lot of resources for a not very diverse army. Midgame pushes will be hell to get thru and even the endgame will be run by heavy bio/gateway comps. Or tons of air forcing corruptors just for them to tech switch to ground while we have tons of useless corruptors just laying around begging for death as they get ignored
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Posts: 3,892
11/17/2012 06:31 PMPosted by Jesse
Jesus christ blizz shouldnt you realize by now if we cant even use our units late game and have to rely on spine walls and bl infestor to win maybe that should tell you somehting about the rest of our units????


You don't have to rely on that stuff in gold.
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Posts: 63
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: they gave players access to a map editor for a reason. Everyone can throw their opinion around as much as they want, but unless you're willing to test it out and back it up with evidence, it's just wind.

Infesters are strong, no denying that here. But I also don't know where to start balancing them.

John: Why don't you make a map and try out infester nerfs and hydra buffs?
Hassan: What would you do to fix it? Hit up the editor, find some other Master zerg players, and try something out.

These posts generally don't accomplish much, but sometimes it does allow players to come up with good ideas. Put them to use, guys! :D

Also: I know I can do the same thing, but I don't know the first thing about the editor, and I am a person who prefers to accept a nerf/buff, and try to find a way around it (meaning I am lazy). Take the pylon block: a pain in the !@#, but you can also exploit some maps that allow you to stack drones and hit a pylon for 70+ dmg. Also: Immortal Sentry is strong, but not unbeatable. Still trying to find ways to cope with it! <-- slight digressions.

Keep fighting! GLKLHF

EDIT** punctuation
Edited by Teacup on 11/20/2012 1:42 PM PST
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Posts: 123
11/17/2012 11:50 PMPosted by Nightwolf
or maybe zerg units are, you know, useful? Infestors are just so good theres no point to make anything else. thats what put zerg under the delusion that they "need" them.


Zergs werent doing anything preinfestor craze. They had the fewest wins in mlg history. Your choices were roach hydra which is just bad, or ling bling muta which can work but muta harass is dying if not dead already. Terran play is macro heavy now and everything in that comp just dies outright. Can zerg win without infestors? yes absolutely, but not often enough to call in balanced. ling bling vs bio takes up to much larvae to be effective to heavy marine production for example.


Macro hatches, queens, bases. Ling bling muta works perfectly fine.
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Posts: 3,020
They have said they are working on WoL units after HotS units. They will most likely make the Infestor their first one they rebalance because of the amount of complaining they are getting about it. Then they will be rebalancing the entire Zerg race around the new units/redone Infestor. Have a bit of patience and it will all be okay.
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Posts: 1,014
But the Infestor used to be almost never used and winrates were fine
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Posts: 734
One of the changes they're talking about was making neural parasite not effect the mothership, which is absolutely stupid, considering how OP (and horrible for e-sports, by the way) the archon toilet already is.

Zerg players need to start posting about balance in General. For the last few weeks it's just been a protoss echo chamber of whining over there.
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