StarCraft® II

zvz when to transition and take 3rd?

with all the ling bling madness i never really feel safe taking a 3rd base or transitioning into roaches, so how do i know its safe? I feel like im always just a smidge behind what my opponent is doing
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well.. given you have two bases and no less than 44 drones you should be thinking about expanding asap. Scouting is important here. If your opponent is still on ling bling just move your army to 3rd and protect it (make sure you leave some blings at your natural just in case he trys a run by or something) if your opponent has roaches and you dont... you need to keep scouting to see if hes doing a timing. If it looks like he is you probably cant expand and if isnt you probably can expand. Always have an overlord at his 3rd and if he takes his... you should be able to take yours.
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Also, in zvz I make my 3rd queen at my natural and start spreading creep to my 3rd. Having an extra queen can be good for early defense vs ling bling but will be crucial to taking your 3rd if your opponent goes muta. I think the more you work on scouting and knowing what your opponent is doing.. the easier taking your 3rd will become
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sorry its impossible to tell you when to take a 3rd or when to build roaches. it depends on your build, but chances are the reason you are struggling is because your build just sucks, so you really cant take a 3rd. if u want to open roaches before you take a 3rd, then u cant expand until u have a bunch of roaches and a few defensive banes to defend it. if u stay on ling bling, you can expand much earlier. if you are going to take a very fast 3rd, then you should normally delay your lair tech in order to be safe and get a better economy to make taking the fast 3rd worth it.

personally what i do is

15hatch
16pool
17gas
double queen when pool finishes
ling speed @100 gas
baneling nest @50gas
scouting lings

go see what hes doing. if hes allin, then defense it. if not, go double evo chamber and get 1/1, drone up and take my third. at this point he does 1 of 2 things. he either allins, or he expands. either way, i need units. so i go ling bling and try to deny his 3rd, or else play ling bling with him until my upgrades kick in and its gg. eventually i take my lair, start 2/2 immediately, and get infestors asap, then take a 4th and go hive, get out ultras, 3/3, crackling upgrade. drop a spire to transition into broodlord or whatever.
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pretty much the second your main and nat are fully saturated, you have no larva available and 300 minerals floating. Worst case scenario he forces a cancel, but then you just drop a macro hatch in your main and play the 'trade turns denying their 3rd' mid game until yours is up. I usually try to take mine behind an attack of some kind to make sure it dont get denied straight out, and get up static D asap.

As for transitioning into roaches, Roach warren is cheap. Drop it when ever you have minerals available and start building them when ling/bling war cools down. No later than lair tech so you can get speed/festor pit right away.

The 2 arent really linked though. I mean it depends on play style. As Chris mentioned; you can take a faster 3rd just chilling on speedling baneling, and that better allows you to deny their 3rd. Spending all of your gas on tech that you would have spent on roaches. Getting fast 2/2 for lings and infestors, doing drop harass, 4 infestor hit squad, nidus play, all way more exciting than lame old 1a roaches. Roaches delay tech, so if you play speedling infestor and he plays roach, you're usually going to have the edge on upgrades, and 2/2 lings kill fungal'd roaches pretty quick. Just build defensive banes and go tech, or make good and sure you do damage with offensive banes and slings and make roaches, and scout constantly/react accordingly.

glhf
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Make sure you're getting your gases in a timely manner. Its easy to know when to switch to roaches because you can make a whole wave of them. If you stay on 1 or 2 gases for too long and don't get all of them then you'll run into a situation where its hard to get off of the ling/bling.
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11/19/2012 12:20 PMPosted by Rathelm
Make sure you're getting your gases in a timely manner. Its easy to know when to switch to roaches because you can make a whole wave of them. If you stay on 1 or 2 gases for too long and don't get all of them then you'll run into a situation where its hard to get off of the ling/bling.


i think this is a big part of my problem. I can say that my build probably does suck because i honestly dont use a specific one. After i 14pool/14 gas/ 16hatch im pretty much trying to play completely reactionary. I dont really know any specific builds and timings im sad to say. Whats a good place to learn the builds i should be doing?
Edited by Nightwolf on 11/19/2012 1:50 PM PST
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my style is to make 8-10 roaches once my two bases are saturated. then ill expand and defend with roach and a couple banes.

To me, there are only three concerns here:

1) scouting for early mutas (like 4 gas at 32 drones early), in which case i will not expand and I will become extremely aggressive

2) Rush to infestor tech, to deal with any normal muta or other attack timings.

3) Keep an eye on roach or ling count. I want my army to be somewhat comparable so I can defend a push at any moment.

ZvZ, you are almost always safer making the defense first, then expanding.
Edited by Scyt on 11/19/2012 2:23 PM PST
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11/19/2012 01:50 PMPosted by Nightwolf
Make sure you're getting your gases in a timely manner. Its easy to know when to switch to roaches because you can make a whole wave of them. If you stay on 1 or 2 gases for too long and don't get all of them then you'll run into a situation where its hard to get off of the ling/bling.


i think this is a big part of my problem. I can say that my build probably does suck because i honestly dont use a specific one. After i 14pool/14 gas/ 16hatch im pretty much trying to play completely reactionary. I dont really know any specific builds and timings im sad to say. Whats a good place to learn the builds i should be doing?


I usually grab one gas after pool. Then use one of the guys in gas to make a baneling nest at 50 gas. I then grab the 3 other gasses at 6:30, also remember to put one guy back into gas. That timing seems to work okay for me. I'm sure its not the most optimal, but easy to execute.
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ZvZ is all about risk management in my opinion. Sure there are safe builds you can rely on to beat worse opponents, but if you get good at risk-reward stuff, you tend to get more wins. Coin flips are great if you can pick a time when the coin is loaded in your favour. This playstyle leads to information being the most valuable resource.
Edited by sTsTtzy on 11/19/2012 5:30 PM PST
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with all the ling bling madness i never really feel safe taking a 3rd base or transitioning into roaches, so how do i know its safe?

I like taking my third (usually before the other guy...) and not transitioning into Roaches.
Edited by Fawxkitteh on 11/19/2012 11:19 PM PST
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11/19/2012 11:18 PMPosted by Fawxkitteh
I like taking my third (usually before the other guy...) and not transitioning into Roaches

ling/infestor/spine ftw! Absolutely my favorite ZvZ.
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from my experience most zvz games end before a zerg manages to get their third since due to zerg's mobility and cost efficiency if u try getting a third on most maps the enemy will try whatever they can to deny it and if they can't they'll just go into ur 2nd while ur pulling units to help your third.
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You should definitely transition to roaches some point into the game especially if he makes a lot of banelings. Also, if he doesn't have many lings and he puts down a bling nest. That's even better. Just cancel your bling nest, assuming it hasn't finished, and put down a roach warren.

The reason to swtich is because blings are cost inefficient against roaches, but if he has too many lings, your roaches will get swamped. So just make a good decision and switch when he over commits to banelings without a lot of lings.

As for your third base you prob don't need it. You're not playing an op race like toss or terran so it's all good. Just don't let him take his. If neither of you do anything for like 5 minutes then take it, make sure ur like 100% safe becuz losing third can cost you game.

GG GL HF
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11/22/2012 11:33 AMPosted by kavinh
from my experience most zvz games end before a zerg manages to get their third since due to zerg's mobility and cost efficiency if u try getting a third on most maps the enemy will try whatever they can to deny it and if they can't they'll just go into ur 2nd while ur pulling units to help your third.


If they try to move into your third when you're still in the ling/bling phase your naturals wall should be sufficient enough to stop it. If they try a 2 base roach timing that can be a bit touchy, but when you build your third you should be preparing to move to roaches anyway and shouldn't be far enough behind in roach count to lose.
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