StarCraft® II

Accidentally clicked Zerg yesterday

I play Terran, but i laddered as zerg by mistake, (since your race choice is not as obvious as it used to be) and I ended up in a ZvP.

My zerg is so bad... But in a fit of desperation, I simply 10pool 1base ling flooded the enemy. I knew he'd FFE, so I right clicked his main base's mineral line. 30+ lings walked by his cannons and went right for the probes. I lost 2 zerglings to the cannons and didn't even kill a probe before he quit.

He turned out to be plat... Was it his fault he lost though? Having only cannons at the nat with no gate seems so vulnerable to me.

If I switched to toss would a gate-cyber expand be reliable? Or do you HAVE TO rely on cannons to have a fighting chance? (I felt dirty for the cheese)
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It sounds like he either played too greedy or just didn't react correctly to the 10 pool. I'd have to see the replay, but if he really had only cannons/forge at his natural, he probably didn't have a good wall to begin with, so that wouldn't have helped him.

The ideal response on his part would have been to warp a gateway to temporarily full-wall his natural and build a second cannon while his zealot finished, then cancel the gateway and use the zealot to plug the gap.

As for a switch to toss, like I said, a temporary full wall then canceling a gateway/pylon will hold against an 8 to 10 pool on most maps. Gateway/core openers are viable against early pools, but you have to use either sim city to interfere with zergling path options and probably pull probes to help kill the aggression.

I personally actually prefer gateway openings against zergs because I can be more aggressive in the early-to-mid game. On most maps, a pylon (or 2) and a gateway can wall off one side of your mineral line if placed near the gas geyser, which restricts the zerg's ability to do damage. At that point they can only attack your minerals from one side and it is much easier to protect your probes with a single zealot while you get your stalker/sentry out.
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The 10 pool ling all-in can be a real pain to hold its not fun at all. Its way easier to do than it is to hold if you scout it late or badly.
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11/27/2012 01:04 PMPosted by dharkness
30+ lings walked by his cannons and went right for the probes. I lost 2 zerglings to the cannons and didn't even kill a probe before he quit.


and this...here....is why the noobs are quitting sc2 in droves and playing something else.

Not because of what you did, but because You CAN do it. You live or die as a protoss making sure you have a tight wall and you play sim city for 10-15 minutes before you can even think about moving out.

You have to build buildings....lots and lots of buildings....you have to defend against nydus.....you have to make sure that....etc...etc....etc.

Zerg on the other hand just builds a pool.....expands......builds drones...3x...6x at a time......watches you with overlords hovering over your base and everywhere on the map.

He expands again....4 minutes into the game and hes on 3 bases having built ONE structure.....the spawning pool.....ONE BUILDING.

5 minutes into the game you perhaps can get out a zealot to go harass a bit...but really your not doing anything....the queen can kill a zealot head up. He spots you coming.....he builds 6-10 lings....but only when he has too.....not before.

A zerg needs no cannons.....no buildings to speak of.....meanwhile back at the protoss compound we are busily building forges and gateways and robo bays, and star gates and pylons and probes and assimilators and more gateways and more pylons and cannons.....and if we think he might go mutas we build even more cannons.

But many times before we can build all these beautiful buildings the zerg just runs thru a hole in our wall and kills us......and so we just quit...we dont GG....we dont congratulate the zerg on a well played game...we just quit...and we consider going to play something else.
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11/27/2012 04:24 PMPosted by ScRuNgY
30+ lings walked by his cannons and went right for the probes. I lost 2 zerglings to the cannons and didn't even kill a probe before he quit.


and this...here....is why the noobs are quitting sc2 in droves and playing something else.

Not because of what you did, but because You CAN do it. You live or die as a protoss making sure you have a tight wall and you play sim city for 10-15 minutes before you can even think about moving out.

You have to build buildings....lots and lots of buildings....you have to defend against nydus.....you have to make sure that....etc...etc....etc.

Zerg on the other hand just builds a pool.....expands......builds drones...3x...6x at a time......watches you with overlords hovering over your base and everywhere on the map.

He expands again....4 minutes into the game and hes on 3 bases having built ONE structure.....the spawning pool.....ONE BUILDING.

5 minutes into the game you perhaps can get out a zealot to go harass a bit...but really your not doing anything....the queen can kill a zealot head up. He spots you coming.....he builds 6-10 lings....but only when he has too.....not before.

A zerg needs no cannons.....no buildings to speak of.....meanwhile back at the protoss compound we are busily building forges and gateways and robo bays, and star gates and pylons and probes and assimilators and more gateways and more pylons and cannons.....and if we think he might go mutas we build even more cannons.

But many times before we can build all these beautiful buildings the zerg just runs thru a hole in our wall and kills us......and so we just quit...we dont GG....we dont congratulate the zerg on a well played game...we just quit...and we consider going to play something else.


I suggest you don't speak for every protoss out there. PvZ is one of my favorite match ups at the moment.
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11/27/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Linkebungu
I suggest you don't speak for every protoss out there. PvZ is one of my favorite match ups at the moment.


You can still find find the match up fun. Scrungy is just saying that he find Protoss's reliance on walling in frustrating.
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11/27/2012 05:44 PMPosted by SunTzu
I suggest you don't speak for every protoss out there. PvZ is one of my favorite match ups at the moment.


You can still find find the match up fun. Scrungy is just saying that he find Protoss's reliance on walling in frustrating.


That's not all. He's complaining about the race's fundamentals as well--how Zerg can get three bases four minutes into the game having built only one tech structure, how they can Drone almost freely (except versus all-ins), etc.
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One gate expos are viable, I've used them quite a bit in the past. I made my own one up and it was very successful up until mid-masters, then I started to lose because it allows for a bit more pressure from the Zerg in the early game since speedlings are so darn quick. Also, I've been playing random on ladder and I've run into quite a few gateway expos, some worked, some didn't (getting quicker speedlings vs an unprepared protoss player can be game ending in this situation). I believe Naniwa has a pretty good one gate expo as well that transitions into pheonix.
So to answer your question, no you don't have to rely on cannons.
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11/27/2012 05:44 PMPosted by SunTzu
I suggest you don't speak for every protoss out there. PvZ is one of my favorite match ups at the moment.


You can still find find the match up fun. Scrungy is just saying that he find Protoss's reliance on walling in frustrating.


At least you have the option. Now imagine playing a ZvZ, you can't really wall off and your opponent early pools ling/drones all-ins. All I say is wah to the OP. At least you can still 4 gate if you don't want to play a macro game. Or you can 2 gate proxy. Both are stupidly strong. Or better yet make it look like a 4 gate kill the overlord than do a DT all-in. All easy builds to execute if FFE 2 base all-ins are too hard for you.
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10 pools should never really do any damage to you. by the time you scout you should see the pool and have enough time to wall off (although you will have to cut probes), at least wall off the ramp to your main... although i think you can wall off your nat's ramp in time.
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11/27/2012 04:24 PMPosted by ScRuNgY
30+ lings walked by his cannons and went right for the probes. I lost 2 zerglings to the cannons and didn't even kill a probe before he quit.


and this...here....is why the noobs are quitting sc2 in droves and playing something else.

Not because of what you did, but because You CAN do it. You live or die as a protoss making sure you have a tight wall and you play sim city for 10-15 minutes before you can even think about moving out.

You have to build buildings....lots and lots of buildings....you have to defend against nydus.....you have to make sure that....etc...etc....etc.

Zerg on the other hand just builds a pool.....expands......builds drones...3x...6x at a time......watches you with overlords hovering over your base and everywhere on the map.

He expands again....4 minutes into the game and hes on 3 bases having built ONE structure.....the spawning pool.....ONE BUILDING.

5 minutes into the game you perhaps can get out a zealot to go harass a bit...but really your not doing anything....the queen can kill a zealot head up. He spots you coming.....he builds 6-10 lings....but only when he has too.....not before.

A zerg needs no cannons.....no buildings to speak of.....meanwhile back at the protoss compound we are busily building forges and gateways and robo bays, and star gates and pylons and probes and assimilators and more gateways and more pylons and cannons.....and if we think he might go mutas we build even more cannons.

But many times before we can build all these beautiful buildings the zerg just runs thru a hole in our wall and kills us......and so we just quit...we dont GG....we dont congratulate the zerg on a well played game...we just quit...and we consider going to play something else.


There's a lot of truth to that.

Protoss spends the first 15min of the game "surviving", because any other attempts fail incredbily hard. I am not including stupid all-ins.

Zerg just makes crap, attacks, is effective. While outdoing my econ hard btw.

Terran is similar vs P, except their attack is more effective and their econ weaker.

Early game P makes me sick.
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Yes, the protoss are very limited in their harassing options and have a hard time defending against mass units harassing (doom drops, etc).

But it is getting fixed in HotS, the oracle will give the protss raiding power and the mothership core's mass recall will allow them to defend doom drops.
Edited by Cloud on 11/29/2012 10:32 AM PST
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It's funny, i've been playing random lately and even though I main toss, I've been doing better in my zerg matchups than my toss ones. Zerg feels so fluid to me, you build a somewhat limited number of structures and then macro like crazy. Expanding frequently is the only pain i notice. There is so much more to remember as a toss player, build orders are complex and long, timings are strict, and building up your econ can feel slow. But with zergs you do things in cycles and your golden. Also drone sacrifice is a bigger deal than zergs make it to be. Larvae (production) is free and continuous...
Edit: also what people were saying about sim city, no such thing exist for zerg, you build spines at front, spores at mineral line, gg. Toss is like trying to play a freaking game of bejeweled right in the middle of your game, line up your big bulky structures just right or you lose.
Edited by Kibbles on 11/29/2012 11:13 AM PST
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30+ lings walked by his cannons and went right for the probes. I lost 2 zerglings to the cannons and didn't even kill a probe before he quit.


and this...here....is why the noobs are quitting sc2 in droves and playing something else.

Not because of what you did, but because You CAN do it. You live or die as a protoss making sure you have a tight wall and you play sim city for 10-15 minutes before you can even think about moving out.

You have to build buildings....lots and lots of buildings....you have to defend against nydus.....you have to make sure that....etc...etc....etc.

Zerg on the other hand just builds a pool.....expands......builds drones...3x...6x at a time......watches you with overlords hovering over your base and everywhere on the map.

He expands again....4 minutes into the game and hes on 3 bases having built ONE structure.....the spawning pool.....ONE BUILDING.

5 minutes into the game you perhaps can get out a zealot to go harass a bit...but really your not doing anything....the queen can kill a zealot head up. He spots you coming.....he builds 6-10 lings....but only when he has too.....not before.

A zerg needs no cannons.....no buildings to speak of.....meanwhile back at the protoss compound we are busily building forges and gateways and robo bays, and star gates and pylons and probes and assimilators and more gateways and more pylons and cannons.....and if we think he might go mutas we build even more cannons.

But many times before we can build all these beautiful buildings the zerg just runs thru a hole in our wall and kills us......and so we just quit...we dont GG....we dont congratulate the zerg on a well played game...we just quit...and we consider going to play something else.


lol cry me a river. zerg also has lots of ways to auto-lose to protoss due to simple mistakes, and many of them are far worse.

if you're frustrated just go dts every game and maybe you'll see my point
Edited by Oboeman on 11/29/2012 6:53 PM PST
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if you're frustrated just go dts every game and maybe you'll see my point...

Actually in another post I indicated that I did go dt's quite a bit because of one over riding reason. FFE makes Zerg go brain dead for 10 minutes. They forget a lot of stuff....one of which is Protoss CAN get dt's and they can get them fairly early.....but we cannot get dt's any earlier then you can get vision.

But that does not alter the fact that dt's are easy to counter.......50 speedlings pouring into a hole in your wall when you have 1 zealot and a couple sentries is not.
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Loads of plats have really terrible ffes tbh. I always make a habit of building 6 lings at the start of the game against them. Maybe about a quarter of the time I am able to win within 5 minutes.
Edited by sTsTtzy on 11/30/2012 6:18 PM PST
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if you're frustrated just go dts every game and maybe you'll see my point...

Actually in another post I indicated that I did go dt's quite a bit because of one over riding reason. FFE makes Zerg go brain dead for 10 minutes. They forget a lot of stuff....one of which is Protoss CAN get dt's and they can get them fairly early.....but we cannot get dt's any earlier then you can get vision.

But that does not alter the fact that dt's are easy to counter.......50 speedlings pouring into a hole in your wall when you have 1 zealot and a couple sentries is not.


of course stopping DTs is easy.
but if you didn't prepare detection you lose the game period. same for having a hole in your wall. There is no good reason to have a hole in your wall, but if it's there you might lose.

There are certain leaks in your game that you must patch up in order to advance as a player. this is one of them. but just because zergs don't lose due to building placement (actually they sometimes do) doesn't mean that zerg is easy.
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Yes, the protoss are very limited in their harassing options and have a hard time defending against mass units harassing (doom drops, etc).

But it is getting fixed in HotS, the oracle will give the protss raiding power and the mothership core's mass recall will allow them to defend doom drops.


Lol what? Protoss has like the most harassing options and timing attacks..you must be thinking about zerg.
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""""but if you didn't prepare detection you lose the game period. same for having a hole in your wall. There is no good reason to have a hole in your wall, but if it's there you might lose."""""

There are lots of reasons to have holes in your wall.

Your talking apples and oranges. Im talking about why NOOBS are quitting sc2. It is because noobs do not make perfect walls...they look away for a few seconds to do something else and zerglings kill the zealot and rush thru the wall. Banelings rush in and kill the on hold zealot and then lings stream into the base.

A noob that is FFE is making probes and buildings and stuff that is not going to defend against 30-40 speedlings running past an on hold zealot and killing your base...or doing so much damage that its impossible to even continue the game with any realistic chance of winning at that point.

If you notice my post was prefaced with... and this...here....is why the noobs are quitting sc2 in droves and playing something else.

A master level player is not usually going to die to ling runbys at least not very often but Bronze level players with 30-40-50 games played are going to see that A LOT....this was my point.

Anyone who has followed my posts know that most of my advice is directed towards noobs learning to play sc2. Not master/GM level players who rely on precise timings for nearly everything.

Additionally many of the top tier Protoss players are completely walling off their walls when they push out with any kind of timing attack because EVEN THEY lose more often then not to a ling run by that is massively OP against a protoss who might be able to warp in 6 zealots to try and clean up 60 speedlings.
Edited by ScRuNgY on 12/1/2012 8:12 AM PST
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A Protoss harrassment option that i don't seem to see much against 3 base zerg is actually the stalker. It's forgotten about way too much that it can't really be killed by lings if microed correctly before speed is done, so it does a lot of damage. Look at some of HuK's PvZ
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