Get the Desktop App for Battle.net Now
- All your games in 1 place
- Log in once
- Automatic game updates
i was watching huskies video and noticed, you moved the Open games button to where the browse button was, and the browse button to where the open games button was, I saw that and thought
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU...
then realized the buttons had just been moved and the open games still isnt the first thing popping up....
TROLLS!!! :P haha, i hope you guys do make the open games list be the first thing that shows :P
Edit: This thread was made as a joke about the new HoTS menu change :P. if it gets out of hand i am sorry haha, I can already see its going toward the map marketplace/Arcade and everything now, imma try to keep out of it though. but yeah this was just a joke.
Edited by IShadowWolf on 12/6/2012 10:23 AM PST
Browse is better, and should be the default thing - this is an arcade and you don't see the AppStore opening with a list of last downloaded. If players don't click on open games then you can't help stupid. You guys complain that Blizzard is 'babying/dumbing down the game' too much, and then complain when they don't ... -_-
You are so right to point out that Blizzard is consciously emulating Apple's App Store. You are so wrong to automatically decide that's a good thing - for two reasons. First, deciding which maps to play on the Starcraft 2 arcade presents a massive coordination problem for all the players. Enough players have to all pile in to enough of the same games to actually play. There's just no reason to think an "App Store" solves the coordination problem anywhere near as well an open games list. Second, if you actually followed tech news and knew anything about Apple's App Store at all, you would know that App developers make the same complaints about discovery that custom mapmakers do. That might not be such a big deal if this were just a single-player games list or something, but when combined with the coordination problem the discovery problem makes it extremely difficult to open up different, less-popular maps to the great body of players. Essentially, the coordination problem here gets solved by everybody piling in to the top whatever maps that have been the same for the year or so that I've owned SC2. That's a shame because it makes the rich, diverse array of niche custom game communities we saw in BW or War3 much harder to recreate and maintain. I love Blizzard and all, but after getting this huge whopping middle finger as a member of one of those niche custom game communities, I don't plan to buy HotS or any other new strategy game from Blizzard until I hear somebody else credibly state that Blizzard has done something to alleviate these problems.
Edited by euknemarchon on 12/6/2012 5:25 AM PST
Actually no trolling ...
I am well aware of Apple's developers woes, but that is the same as in ANY saturated market.
From a design point of view, it should award those map developers who break through, it should give us something to aim for. I want to be on the top of that list, if I made a map that was popular enough I would want to get my credit for it.
At the same time, I know what it is like to not be able to break through popularity. Search for Dogmai's Phant3m and compare that to Phantom Mode - keep in mind I have not updated that map since I uploaded it two years ago. Two years! And it is still better designed than the current Phantom Mode but has never seen a game played.
Why? Because Phantom Mode has a community following - and all the people I meet in game always complain that Phantom Mode sucks (unless they are regulars of the community), and they point out the flaws that I fixed in my Phantom map - however, because of the popularity list, and the very important fact that people play what they are use to playing, I do not bother trying to get a game.
Threatening to boycott is your choice, I already preordered the Hots CE, knowing that things can and are already starting to improve. Granted, to be honest, I just wanted the Art Book so if I meet Samwise one day I can get it signed, but the point still stands.
Map Makers are much like any other Artist.
The most successful Graphic Designers or Photographers (commercial) are not the best Designers or Photographers, they can actually be really bad and the "really" good ones !@#$% and complain, saying why should they succeed when I am better!?
They succeed because they are good at business. They are good at networking. They are good at advertising their product or service, where the others try and rely on their skill, and that can only get them so far.
This is Business 101. Map Makers do not think like this, they think like most Artists do, they do it because they love to do it, not because they are in competition with other people. But the truth is you are in competition with other Map Makers. It has nothing to do with earning money, but you are in competition to be seen.
Do not think that all you have to do is make a good map, you need to market it, get people involved, create a following, like every single other creative genre needs to do (Indi Games, Indi Movies, etc). Think outside the box.
As I have stated numerous times, the problem is with the player-base.
Actually no trolling ...
Why are we still talking about app store format and how to apply it to SC2 games when it clearly doesn't fit and never will?
The fact is most of the apps are "singleplayer" you do NOT need anyone else to be able to use the app... whereas most of the SC2 games are multiplayer, where you NEED others to play the game.
Some elements can be taken from an app store format yes, but most of them not really because they simply do not apply here.
It still boggles my mind how blizzard expects new maps to be played, when NO ONES sees them to even try to play them... If the developer doesn't go way out of his way to "boost" his map's popularity, then that map will never see the light of day.
AND the simple fact that maps like "UNIT PRELOADER" are constantly occupying the spotlight is a big FAIL for the way spotlight works... give me a break that's not even a game... seriously? you don't see anything wrong with that Blizzard?
And what about the "featured list" why does it take an eternity to add new maps on there? Here's a thought, maybe wipe it clean every 2 weeks and give other maps a chance? and for the love of god add category filtering and party support to "Fun or Not", NO ONE like to play alone, and NO ONE like to play a category of game that he/she doesn't like...
Sorry for the anger, it's long due, the custom game system has been crap since this game was in beta...
Edited by CaveOfWondrs on 12/6/2012 10:10 AM PST
Most of the people who complain about these issues are mapmakers, and it's easy to pigeonhole them into this concern about their inability to compete. If the only issue were really about mapmakers competing for eyeballs, I think your response would be spot-on, Dogmai.
But I'm definitely not a mapmaker. I'm a player. I spent my high school years playing custom map genres, running channels for clans centered around custom maps, and helping mapmakers improve their offerings. I came back after I graduated from college to play WoL games as a rare free time deal. So I'm coming at this from the perspective of somebody who has spent way more time thinking about how the communities around maps work than worrying about getting my maps popular. I also know what BW was like in its heyday.
I disagree with you that the problem is the player base per se. I agree that mapmakers could alleviate the problem by trying to engage more and players could alleviate the problems by choosing to be engaged more. But you've really got to think about this from two other perspectives.
First, how does a new player interested in arcade maps grow from newb status to mature player? Of course I know how to be an engaged player; I learned something like a decade ago on Warcraft 2's B.net. But new players don't, so the system has to create ways that allow them to explore new maps and learn how to act in the B.net community. Currently the system teaches new players to expect zero wait times, to expect to instantly know how to play new maps, etc. etc. I'm not a fan.
Second, you've got the issues I outlined above about coordination problems. The mapmaking engine in Starcraft 2 can support a very rich, diverse array of maps actually played by niche communities. However, players interested in niche maps have a very difficult time coordinating around what maps to play. Can you comprehend how much better it would be for the phantom community to be able to choose among several different phantom maps because they use an open list where coordination is less of a problem? This system creates powerful incentives for communities to coalesce around a single publisher's version of a map, and the community has to have a huge mass to get beyond it (e.g. the size of the TD or line wars groups).
When you combine these two problems you basically ruin any incentives or behavioral paths for new players to get ushered into any but the most popular map communities. You're right to point out that people play what they're used to anyway; if that's such a powerful behavior tendency, why would we want a system that magnifies the tendency? Further, telling mapmakers and players (Blizzard or yourself) to solve the coordination and discovery problems outside of the Battle.net system through marketing tools is ridiculous when it's so easy to solve them inside the system to the benefit of everybody.
Just to clarify, I'm not threatening to boycott as some kind of political move. I'm stating that I will choose not to buy as a consumer because Blizzard actually destroyed one of the most important reasons I purchase its products: the ability to take part in a multiplicity of niche gaming communities that center around particular genres of maps. They cut my utility from playing below the price of the product, so why would I buy? Unfortunately I expect many other players will do the same, but (unlike the complaining mapmakers) they're not such ranters to come here and complain about it. Blizzard also may not be able to tell because they're still spending goodwill they've developed over two decades and they've got a bunch of people somehow willing to play Nexus Wars every day (the product of natural growth in gaming).
Edited by euknemarchon on 12/6/2012 10:42 AM PST
the single player nature of most apps makes the comparisson invalid.
Yes there will always be artwork, music, movies etc that are better (to our refined subjective tastes) than the mass produced garbage that the plebs enjoy. But If there is some musician I really love I can introduce a friend to it. They can enjoy it over and over again and then share it with other people... Before you know it there is a niche following.
It is significantly harder (although not impossible) for things which are severly hampered by the coordination problem as it was called earlier.
Also the community at large is sick of the current stagnation. I don't know of anyone who uses a phone app who has this issue
Edited by turtles on 12/6/2012 10:47 AM PST
I WOULD agree with dogmai, but there are some projects that get popularity for nothing...
For example Dragon RPG... it hit the top list, when I asked the maker what he did, he just said he published it he didn't post about it anywhere, he didnt go on reddit, no forums, nothing it just happened in like 1 day( it had 1 monster that spawned in 1 location, 1 Hero and 20 levels for the hero, no abilities) there were other RPGs with better things in them, they were better no meaning good... :P. they had everything his map had. and Much much more. yet why did his succeed? anyone?
So it was VERY boring and at that time it was nothing( i hear it has gotten better :P)
Yet it got the top 10 list page 1 spot 1 for like 2 weeks.
And then there is monobattles...
Many of the major Casters have talked about it, so why didnt it top page one? you would think after the hundreds of thousands of people who listen to them, that it would have hit page 1.
NOPE, it hit page 3, and i think it got the last number on page 1 for like a couple days.
its not advertising, No one will listen to me, and i am called stupid for it, but I honestly, believe there is a HUGE bug somewhere....
Edited by IShadowWolf on 12/6/2012 11:10 AM PST
its not advertising, No one will listen to me, and i am called stupid for it, but I honestly, believe there is a HUGE bug somewhere....
ya it's called the popularity system that's still living beneath the shiny UI that they added in the Arcade.
Yeah the popularity system is still there, thats fine. I understand people wanna play their favorite maps, but letting them stay up there.. EHHH...
I have 2 suggestions that would work.
1. get rid of the popularity system, Add a bookmarks page to where it was. browse is fine, but it should be randomized.
2. on the front page Remove the popularity system and put a mini open games list there. and where up and coming is, put RANDOM maps. :P that would be cooler, that way if a map really is most popular and people really do love it, they will book mark it, go the extra step to play it.
Remember that bug before the arcade where the list kept cycling because the time played was resetting when it hit a low cap, well, that was the best thing that ever happened to the custom game scene.
Make the open list the default page that people see, combine that cycling list with the ability to search, filter by categories, bookmark - all of which we already have - and you'll have a much better system imo.
All this new shiny ui additions that the arcade brought - which i assume costed quite a bit - was unnecessary, the system could have been fixed with what i and many before me suggested above.
So yes, I saw Husky's video about it there :
While I am happy they put "Open games" above "Browse", I am a bit disconcerted that the "Browse" screen seems to be the default when you go to the Arcade.
It should be "Open games" as default after seeing the first top X popular maps after so ungodly long.
Oh please, just do that final extra step.
Mapmakers badly need to be able to put the popularity issues like a distant memory. Note that I don't mean the end of popularity but that it stops determining if our map gets played or not.
Blizzard should also add the last 10 open games (those in difficulty to get players) in the spotlight while cutting 2 of the 6 up & coming so that the spotlight truly become representative and global.
EDIT : Completely edited as I forgot "Spotlight" is before both "Browse" and "Open Games" even in 1.5.
Edited by Honejasi on 12/6/2012 2:32 PM PST
No the featured page should be the front page....
Thats what its there for, thats what it was created and I actually like it.
They just need to remove the up and coming, and place open games on the front page too, It should be in 2 places anyways, a mini one on the front, and then its own page.
Blizzards doing great, just some sorting and replacing needs to be done, Keep up the good work guys.
Edited by IShadowWolf on 12/6/2012 4:41 PM PST
Blizzard has done a lot of great work, but this popularity system does not go on that list.
That said, fixing the system may be compatible with them maintaining a lot of the innovation they've done over the course of Starcraft 2's development. But I don't think we can really grasp how that can be done without realizing why the open games lists on all the prior games worked well. I'm arguing that the open games list worked well because it led to discovery (advertising, trying new things, exposing new players, etc.) and coordination (clear signals of who already wants to play what), which together helped move new players into mature participants in one or more diverse niche communities. That's what's important.
Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.
Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.
Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.