StarCraft® II

PvZ: patch implications

Ok, I went to test the fungal nerf and let me tell you it's pretty big. Normally your 3 base colossus/stalker/sentry push would be shut down hard by fungals, but the nerf lets you kill off the infestors easily with the colossus. The zerg can't get to broodlords easily anymore, so they actually need corrupters for defense.

Zerg is going to have problem of overmaking corrupters and not enough army like they did before, so they are going to die to 3 base timings like they use to. Also since the phoenix pretty much hard counters any muta play, I see a resurgence of stargate play.

The other important nerf is the IT egg nerf, normally your third would get ravaged by a million ITs and roaches, but now you can defend your third very comfortably with immortal/sentry with decent ff's.

Since pro P players already play so much super late-game ZvP, I think the win rates will shift heavily into P's favor. I feel like Z lost their only reliable (although OP) option for the mid/late game. Infestors (after patch), hydras and mutas are stopped pretty easily by decent players. Stephano's max-roach push is pretty much figured out on most maps also.
Edited by VDktg on 12/5/2012 2:30 AM PST
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12/05/2012 02:15 AMPosted by VDktg
Normally your 3 base colossus/stalker/sentry push would be shut down hard by fungals, but the nerf lets you kill off the infestors easily with the colossus.
This just means that Zerg has to play on numbers and positioning more than on pure OPness of a broken unit. It will require Zerg to be more aware of army positioning like Protosses ALWAYS are, due to how Zerg have an advantage purely by having better positioning in battles (which players never really took advantage of aside from a few pros like Leenock, Scarlett and Symbol).

12/05/2012 02:15 AMPosted by VDktg
The zerg can't get to broodlords easily anymore, so they actually need corrupters for defense.
Good. That is how it should have been in the first place.

12/05/2012 02:15 AMPosted by VDktg
Zerg is going to have problem of overmaking corrupters and not enough army like they did before
Not really.

The "problem" that Zerg players will have is to balance corruptor numbers to Infestor numbers similar to how Terran balances Vikings to Ghosts in TvP, which makes the game more interesting, especially since Zerg T3 is not like Terran bio/ghost + viking + medivac lategame.

"Overmaking corruptors" is only an issue if the Zerg is not scouting properly and is OVER-reacting to Colossi on the field. It is now important that Zerg gets Corruptors as needed other than over-making them then staying safe from attack with Infestors like they used to, due to the broken nature of Infestors. I have a feeling this will still apply to some extent but would require Zerg to spend more apm to accomplish this. We can only truly tell if this change is a sufficient nerf to Infestors or not, based on pro-play in the future months.

Stating "overmaking corruptors" as a problem is just indicative of how SPOILED Zerg players have been with Infestor play.



12/05/2012 02:15 AMPosted by VDktg
so they are going to die to 3 base timings like they use to.
Only if they blindly go corruptors or don't scout.

12/05/2012 02:15 AMPosted by VDktg
Also since the phoenix pretty much hard counters any muta play, I see a resurgence of stargate play.
Er... Unless Protoss opened double stargate to begin with and SCOUTS a spire at that 8th min, your statement is pretty much false.

1 Stargate play is still pretty iffy and relies on specific strategies and metagaming the Zerg a lot. 2 Stargate play can be pretty standard as shown by Sidewinder's 2 base MS build.

12/05/2012 02:15 AMPosted by VDktg
The other important nerf is the IT egg nerf, normally your third would get ravaged by a million ITs and roaches, but now you can defend your third very comfortably with immortal/sentry with decent ff's.
Er... I wold not say "comfortably". It is till pretty hard, but it won't be an automatic loss of a 3rd base as it used to be. There will now be an element of BARELY defending that 3rd which will give rise to more interesting macro-based strategy from Protoss which will now compete with macro Zerg, whereas it was pretty impossible in the past unless Protoss did a REALLY strong 2 base tech or 2 base attack that killed Zerg's 3rd or the Protoss went hardcore CreatorPrime no colossus style.

The only good thing the egg nerf does is allow High Templar to now counter IT egg spamming. This was impossible to stop even with a few colossi in the mix.

12/05/2012 02:15 AMPosted by VDktg
Since pro P players already play so much super late-game ZvP, I think the win rates will shift heavily into P's favor.
More like either 50/50 or slightly in Z's favor instead of grossly in Z's favor like today.

It will take time, but I think that's where rates will stabilize.

12/05/2012 02:15 AMPosted by VDktg
I feel like Z lost their only reliable (although OP) option for the mid/late game.
Not really. You're over-dramatizing the nerf. Infestors STILL do 30/40damage per fungal and ITs STILL have ridiculous DPS for a free unit, so aside from needing PRE-positioning and needing to actively seek tactical advantages on a map (using drops, burrow-move flanks, etc), Zerg have a pretty much INTACT infestor.

The sky is not falling over your head.

12/05/2012 02:15 AMPosted by VDktg
Infestors (after patch), hydras and mutas are stopped pretty easily by decent players.
Infestors pre-patch weren't possible to stop by decent players, so that makes your statement a good thing for the game because now it IS possible to stop Infestors, forcing Zerg to play more cautiously and not rely on 20+ Infestors to win games by gaining unfair economic and army advantages in midgame using this broken unit.

Hydras and Mutas were being stopped by good players because those are core units that are only short-lived in purpose and decent Protosses had learned to KNOW when their purpose ENDED. Infestors are useful ALL GAME LONG, even post-nerf. So, your point is kinda moot.

12/05/2012 02:15 AMPosted by VDktg
Stephano's max-roach push is pretty much figured out on most maps also.
As it should be.
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12/05/2012 02:15 AMPosted by VDktg
I feel like Z lost their only reliable (although OP) option for the mid/late game.


WOOOOOOOOW....... QQ

Seriously. It's only been one day and you're already complaining. And one range is not losing a unit. Removing KA was big, this is small. Nerfing ghost was big, this is really just balancing. Now your one unit has one weakness. Big freaking deal.
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12/05/2012 08:34 AMPosted by EllisD
And one range is not losing a unit. Removing KA was big, this is small. Nerfing ghost was big, this is really just balancing. Now your one unit has one weakness. Big freaking deal.
QFT :)

Very well said. Before, the Infestor had no real weakness, and now it does. Zerg players need to learn to accept that their coveted Infestor was broken.
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I'm not saying the patch is good or bad, I'm just saying that PvZ is winnable now. Which is obviously good for me (I play protoss).

I'm not even a zerg player....My point is that now you can actually play a macro game and have a good chance in the late game, which is quite different from the helpless situation I found myself in before.

edit: Zamara has no idea what he/she is talking about. Please disregard his/her post. This patch is BIG, the meta is going to change a lot.
Edited by VDktg on 12/5/2012 3:01 PM PST
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Lawls.
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12/05/2012 02:15 AMPosted by VDktg
Zerg is going to have problem of overmaking corrupters and not enough army like they did before, so they are going to die to 3 base timings like they use to. Also since the phoenix pretty much hard counters any muta play,


"Overmaking corruptors" is only an issue if the Zerg is not scouting properly and is OVER-reacting to Colossi on the field. It is now important that Zerg gets Corruptors as needed other than over-making them then staying safe from attack with Infestors like they used to, due to the broken nature of Infestors. I have a feeling this will still apply to some extent but would require Zerg to spend more apm to accomplish this. We can only truly tell if this change is a sufficient nerf to Infestors or not, based on pro-play in the future months.


12/05/2012 02:52 PMPosted by VDktg
edit: Zamara has no idea what he/she is talking about.
Right... lol.

AKA, VDktg, you have no actual counter-argument.

/pwned.
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Zerg is going to have problem of overmaking corrupters and not enough army like they did before, so they are going to die to 3 base timings like they use to. Also since the phoenix pretty much hard counters any muta play,


"Overmaking corruptors" is only an issue if the Zerg is not scouting properly and is OVER-reacting to Colossi on the field. It is now important that Zerg gets Corruptors as needed other than over-making them then staying safe from attack with Infestors like they used to, due to the broken nature of Infestors. I have a feeling this will still apply to some extent but would require Zerg to spend more apm to accomplish this. We can only truly tell if this change is a sufficient nerf to Infestors or not, based on pro-play in the future months.


12/05/2012 02:52 PMPosted by VDktg
edit: Zamara has no idea what he/she is talking about.
Right... lol.

AKA, VDktg, you have no actual counter-argument.

/pwned.


Counter argument? It use to be a known hard and fast rule in PvZ that if you let P get 3 bases, you already lost. You force field the army, have your stalkers kill the corrupters and win.

Your the one suggesting that stargate play does not shut down muta play by definition and that some horrible 2 stargate gimmick build is "standard".

edit: I'm not looking to start a flame war, just opinions from mid master+ players on ZvP now versus before the patch.
Edited by VDktg on 12/6/2012 9:25 AM PST
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12/06/2012 09:21 AMPosted by VDktg
It use to be a known hard and fast rule in PvZ that if you let P get 3 bases, you already lost.
Have you been living under a rock for the past year or something?

3 base P = 5 base Zerg + Hive, which gets into Protoss coinflipping between landing a good vortex or not, at pro level.

Your notion is grossly misinformed, and I don't consider Zerg fears as a valid basis for PvZ Meta.

12/06/2012 09:21 AMPosted by VDktg
Your the one suggesting that stargate play does not shut down muta play by definition and that some horrible 2 stargate gimmick build is "standard".
1. *You're*

2. Try the build and execute it correctly.

3. It works consistently vs top Masters and GM level Zergs.

4. Preconceived notions without at least verifying them are fun, but irrelevant.

5. 1 Stargate after FFE does not shut down muta, if you're above Diamond league.

6. 2 stargate play accounts for roach-based play AND muta play, because you already built the infrastructure to go for double chronoed Phoenix, and you can scout a spire/infestation pit by 8 mins with a single Phoenix flying over all of Zerg's bases, and by the time mutas hit, you WILL have enough Phoenixes with +1 air attack to shut them down. 1 Stargate does not even come close.

7. Educate yourself about this build before bad-mouthing it. Yeah?

12/06/2012 09:21 AMPosted by VDktg
I'm not looking to start a flame war,
Could have fooled me...

12/06/2012 09:21 AMPosted by VDktg
just opinions from mid master+ players on ZvP now versus before the patch.
You got it.

Oh, and my opinion is validated by players like BounD, Sidewinder, venom who are all Mid and top Masters that play at the highest levels. venom has beaten Col.Ryze with the 2 base Mothership + 2 stargate build.

That aside, all of your arguments have been addressed in my previous post if you ACTUALLY read it. You don't have counters to my points, which validates my position that you are over-reacting to the patch changes.
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3 oracles in a unprepared zerg mineral line = a slaughter

just saiyan
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3 oracles in a unprepared zerg mineral line = a slaughter

just saiyan
As it should be.

3 Banshees in an unprepared zerg's mineral line = the same thing.
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So anybody actually play the patch? I don't really care about this bronze league !@#$ poster who probably does not even play the game.

What are your experiences? Is pvz any easier for you? Are you now confident in the late game now etc etc..?
Edited by VDktg on 12/6/2012 4:41 PM PST
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Yeah I'm done with your wood league SC2 knowledge, and that's telling because according to you, you actually play the game.

I have the HOTS patch, and I speak from experience, so you can shove your blatant noob ignorance.

Get ignored.
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Nobody goes Hive tech on hots anyway, only for upgrades maybe so it dosent really change anything
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Lawls, lawls, lawls!
Edited by RexUranus on 12/7/2012 12:13 PM PST
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12/05/2012 08:28 AMPosted by Zamara
Stating "overmaking corruptors" as a problem is just indicative of how SPOILED Zerg players have been with Infestor play.
Overmaking corruptors is the oldest problem in the book when it comes to dealing with colossi. It has nothing to do with being spoiled by infestors.
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I am predicting ultra play will get more common as a stepping stone to BL/infestor
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12/08/2012 05:15 PMPosted by sTsTtzy
Stating "overmaking corruptors" as a problem is just indicative of how SPOILED Zerg players have been with Infestor play.
Overmaking corruptors is the oldest problem in the book when it comes to dealing with colossi. It has nothing to do with being spoiled by infestors.
Elaborate, please.

If a Zerg is "overmaking" corruptors, it is because of fear. Not because he needs that many corruptors. In modern lategame PvZ, making a lot of corruptors (with just a handful in excess of what is required to deal with colossi or Protoss Air) is common and it is considered fine because Zerg has the resources to convert the corruptors to Broodlords at a moment's notice - usually when Protoss tech switches from air units to Zealot/Archon from 20 gates.

Old school "overmaking" issues with corruptors existed because Zergs were NOT going hive, and were making too many corruptors with no follow-up. Also, they did NOT know how many corruptors to colossi to make and were making them too abundantly only to have a smaller maxed Lair tech army without infestors. If they DID go hive, it would be a 4 base Hive and 0 infestors and 0 spine forests against a Protoss who went mostly for a 2 base Colossus timing and a 3rd base behind the attack. PvZ has evolved beyond that a LONG time ago.

I disagree that Zerg's issues with "overproducing" corruptors were legitimate. The reason why that used to be an issue was wither:

1) Incompetence.
2) Lack of scouting and preparation.
3) No hive tech or an extremely late one.

It is a fact that infestors were the crutch unit of Zerg for the better part of a year, not because Zerg midgame/Lair tech was weak, but because Zerg PLAYERS were weak and had found an "easy-button" solution in the guise of Infestors because Fungal + IT was so strong, and they did not bother to learn to use their other tools like banelings and drops/nydus play, and even hydras purely as support.

In WOL, the changes are quite subtle, but have a generally good impact on the matchup because now it encourages Zergs to diversify their "portfolio" of units to play against any other race - the same thing Terrans and Protosses have been doing since the Infestor was buffed about a year ago.

In HOTS, the Infestor nerfs are even more extensive:

- Fungal is now an 8 range projectile with a very fast movement speed - dodgeable
- ITs are nerfed just like in WOL
- ITs no longer gain scaling from upgrades from the evo chamber

These ensure that Zerg is using more Hydra/Viper compositions, or Swarm Host/corruptor/Queen + hydra support followed by Ultra/crackling/Viper/Infestor + corruptor that has the potential to transition into BL/Infestor/corruptor/viper if the situation warrants it.

From the time the Infestor got nerfed, I have played 3 PvZs in HOTS where I did not face a BL/Infestor Hive composition that was quite powerful to hold its own.

If I used Z/Archon as my core on the ground, I'd see a mix of banelings with ultra/crackling.
If I went Tempest/Carrier/Archon, I'd see Viper/Hydra/roach/corruptor + 1-3 Infestors purely to Fungal my air units.
If I went Blink/Colossus, Ultra/crackling/Viper/enough corruptors to handle colossi.

And so on and so forth.

The "problem" with Zerg players is that they've been TOO reliant on 1 overpowered unit for far too long. "Overmaking corruptors" is a moot issue because Zergs have not been using their tech trees adequately.
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I disagree that Zerg's issues with "overproducing" corruptors were legitimate. The reason why that used to be an issue was wither:

1) Incompetence.
2) Lack of scouting and preparation.
3) No hive tech or an extremely late one.

There was something wrong with how zergs were playing out roach/hydra/corruptor, but you are completely off mark on the reasons.

1) This can be a problem, but is hardly universal.

2) This is actually incredibly hard to do. If anything, zerg players relied too much on scouting and preparation. A consistent theme back in 2011 is that zerg players got rolled if they played defensively and had a 50/50ish chance of winning if they played aggressively. That isn't because of them not scouting. They did scout. It's just extremely hard to balance a defensive army that includes corruptors.

3) This isn't a problem at all if you are trading armies all the time. Hive becomes necessary when the protoss is approaching around 150 food. I don't get hive until then because roach/hydra/corruptor works so well until then there is no reason not to do it.

The real reasons? They didn't play aggressively. Playing aggressively and always being in your opponents face gives you the chance to reset their army and gives you the chance to balance your new armies depending on what you know they can build. You also have the benefit of not having to worry about the leftover protoss army (there will be leftover protoss) winning the game immediately.

It wasn't the lack of a follow up. It was standard to follow up with brood lords. Brood lords were the reason zergs settled for making more corruptors than they needed rather than taking a chance with making less, unless you are IdrA, then you just made way more corruptors than you needed for no reason.

This is speaking from experience. I never left roach/hydra/corruptor other than a few months when I was playing around with other stuff and what I learned is making corruptors defensively is one of the worst moves you can make in this game. That's what baneling drops are for. My original comment was in the context of people talking about defensive corruptors.
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So anybody actually play the patch? I don't really care about this bronze league !@#$ poster who probably does not even play the game.

What are your experiences? Is pvz any easier for you? Are you now confident in the late game now etc etc..?


You do know Zamara's actually pretty good at the game, right?
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