StarCraft® II

Apm wall

Hey guys. So first let me address the fact that I know apm is not the only thing that matters, and in fact, it can be very inconsequential, however I believe This legitimately might be my issue laddering higher. Just to go over my idea, I think it was an ipl caster that mentioned this, anyways he said apm is a box, the larger the box the more you can fit in it (effective actions) the smaller the box, the less you can fit. and my box, religiously is 40-50 apm.....

Im not in the least bit interested in increasing my apm by spamming pointlessly, I'm only interested in raising my effective apm. I will be including some replays of 2 macro games one pvt, and one pvz so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about, as i feel my overall macro strat is pretty straightforward and solid, but feel free to comment, advise, w/e.

Thanks in advance

Ps. the pvz game we bs'd alot, just ignore it lol.

PvT- http://drop.sc/281967

PvZ- http://drop.sc/281966
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APM wall is a myth. I believe day9 or somebody said you can do everything you need to do with around 80 apm. Just playing more to the point of knowing what to do at all times can increase it from 50 to 80 alone.

There are also masters players with 40 apm and bronze players with 300. 50 seems pretty average for gold level anyway.
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I don't have the time to watch the replay right now, but I think that the only thing you really can do about increasng your APM is just to practice and play more. Make sure to always rememering to make probes, not get supply blocked, etc. will be much more important to focus on, and as you get used to doing those kinds of things i'm sure that your APM will naturally increase.

ANother thing to watch for is cold hands. Since it's winter, make sure your hands are nice and warm before playing :P Where I live my hands freeze off while I play sometimes, and it's terrible to be stumbling along with numb hands.
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One thing I did when I was first learning to play is break the game down into a short list of things to constantly be doing. Maybe something like this:

1 - Do I need more supply?
2 - Do I need more workers?
3 - Where is my army?
4 - Where is my opponent's army?
5 - Can I build more units?

It's incredibly simplistic and priorities change depending what is going on, but one of the most difficult things when you're learning the game is to always be doing something. Newer players usually spend a lot of time, even if its just 5 seconds here and there, not really doing anything, or maybe just watching their army but giving no commands.

If you can get a list of tasks ingrained into your mind when you play, they will start to require less active focus. You will just naturally start doing those simple things and be able to focus on more complex tasks like microing your army.
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I don't have the time to watch the replay right now, but I think that the only thing you really can do about increasng your APM is just to practice and play more. Make sure to always rememering to make probes, not get supply blocked, etc. will be much more important to focus on, and as you get used to doing those kinds of things i'm sure that your APM will naturally increase.

ANother thing to watch for is cold hands. Since it's winter, make sure your hands are nice and warm before playing :P Where I live my hands freeze off while I play sometimes, and it's terrible to be stumbling along with numb hands.


One of the main reasons i bring this up is my apm, had never changed, it was 50 when i in bronze, and now 3 seasons later gold/plat, with many builds and strats under my belt, and hundreds of games, still the same, 50. I dont get it.

Anyways when it comes to the hands being cold thing, i live in california, and im fat, i dont know what cold is.
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Just keep playing more. Your APM will increase on its own as you get better.

My average APM (according to sc2gears) is 105.

It used to be closer to 50-60. I have done nothing to increase my APM, other than just keep playing.

As you get better at micro/macro, your APM will keep going up.

Don't pay any attention to it, and just keep playing trying to get better.

Most likely, there are other aspects of your game that are lacking and you need to work on. Focus on those things, and you will see an increase of APM.
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12/05/2012 02:05 PMPosted by wraithcube
APM wall is a myth. I believe day9 or somebody said you can do everything you need to do with around 80 apm. Just playing more to the point of knowing what to do at all times can increase it from 50 to 80 alone.

This more or less hits the point, but let me expand on it.

The basic question I would have is this: do you know lots of things you should be doing at any given point in time but can't get your hands to do it? Or do you simply look back and notice that you've missed things and thought, "Gee, if I was only faster".

If the answer to the first question is yes, then faster hands would help you, but learning to prioritize could mitigate that. In the latter case, APM isn't your primary problem at all, it's awareness.
Work on hotkeys so that the things you know you need to do can be done faster, but if you are late getting your Robo down, late getting warp gate, late taking your 3rd, etc. then focusing on faster hands won't help you, and might actually cause you to miss the things you're *supposed* to be doing.
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I don't have the time to watch the replay right now, but I think that the only thing you really can do about increasng your APM is just to practice and play more. Make sure to always rememering to make probes, not get supply blocked, etc. will be much more important to focus on, and as you get used to doing those kinds of things i'm sure that your APM will naturally increase.

ANother thing to watch for is cold hands. Since it's winter, make sure your hands are nice and warm before playing :P Where I live my hands freeze off while I play sometimes, and it's terrible to be stumbling along with numb hands.


One of the main reasons i bring this up is my apm, had never changed, it was 50 when i in bronze, and now 3 seasons later gold/plat, with many builds and strats under my belt, and hundreds of games, still the same, 50. I dont get it.

Anyways when it comes to the hands being cold thing, i live in california, and im fat, i dont know what cold is.


My guess would be 1 of 2 things mainly.

1) You have poor micro. Micro in general will spike your APM up a lot, as you are quickly controlling your units, and also (hopefully) you are still macro'ing behind it, so your APM will be a combination of both at the same time. If you are not micro'ing your units, this will lower your overall APM a lot.

2) You are a passive player. If you are very passive, and just play macro games every game, all of your APM will be focused on macro, which is not very APM intensive. There is nothing wrong with this, but its just kinda the way the game is... Not much APM needed to macro 1-3 bases effectively. (this is also 1 big reason why Protoss in generall have a lower APM, as a lot of builds are macro heavy 1-3 bases, followed by 1 quick deadly attack)
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One thing I did when I was first learning to play is break the game down into a short list of things to constantly be doing. Maybe something like this:

1 - Do I need more supply?
2 - Do I need more workers?
3 - Where is my army?
4 - Where is my opponent's army?
5 - Can I build more units?

It's incredibly simplistic and priorities change depending what is going on, but one of the most difficult things when you're learning the game is to always be doing something. Newer players usually spend a lot of time, even if its just 5 seconds here and there, not really doing anything, or maybe just watching their army but giving no commands.

If you can get a list of tasks ingrained into your mind when you play, they will start to require less active focus. You will just naturally start doing those simple things and be able to focus on more complex tasks like microing your army.


/sigh

I included the reeplays for people to watch to give ME advice on how to improve my gameplay/apm. not a "heres what to do, in general" that, ive got. By al means if i was doing somthing wrong in the game, point it out so I can fix it, i feel action starved due to eco, i keep it low almost all the time. Ty for the tips anyways :D

Future post pls watch replays b4 making general sugestions, I read alot so I understand general ideas, i need specific tips. new to the fourms, not starcraft <3
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12/05/2012 02:19 PMPosted by Gilthanis
I included the reeplays for people to watch to give ME advice on how to improve my gameplay/apm. not a "heres what to do, in general" that, ive got

Then, with all due respect, you need to learn to ask the right question. "Why am I losing" and "What would it be best for me to improve" are questions that providing a replay helps support.
"Am I hitting the APM wall" is not. Because the answer is going to be no.

I imagine I'm not the only one who can't watch replays because I'm at work, but thought I could help with your actual question ;)
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2) You are a passive player. If you are very passive, and just play macro games every game, all of your APM will be focused on macro, which is not very APM intensive. There is nothing wrong with this, but its just kinda the way the game is... Not much APM needed to macro 1-3 bases effectively. (this is also 1 big reason why Protoss in generall have a lower APM, as a lot of builds are macro heavy 1-3 bases, followed by 1 quick deadly attack)


Normally im not, lol. Ive been praticing macro games in hopes to climb ladder. Im a huge fan of 1 and 2 base timings. my apm is the same 4 gating lawl.
I will agree, my micro is poor, and i need to work on that for sure.

This more or less hits the point, but let me expand on it.

The basic question I would have is this: do you know lots of things you should be doing at any given point in time but can't get your hands to do it? Or do you simply look back and notice that you've missed things and thought, "Gee, if I was only faster".

If the answer to the first question is yes, then faster hands would help you, but learning to prioritize could mitigate that. In the latter case, APM isn't your primary problem at all, it's awareness.
Work on hotkeys so that the things you know you need to do can be done faster, but if you are late getting your Robo down, late getting warp gate, late taking your 3rd, etc. then focusing on faster hands won't help you, and might actually cause you to miss the things you're *supposed* to be doing.


Awareness is again, something i need to work on, i tend to tunnel, ive lost my main to counter drops many times because of this.

Hotkeys and keybinds are def not the issue tho, i use, actually use 6-7 hotkey groups and keybinds with grid. Another issue could be my mouse, its a naga and the left click is almost broken, it double clicks on accident all the time ( making me pull all probes on accident lol ) and then when i try to double click it wont, so i HAVE to highlight units, kind of annoying
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Then, with all due respect, you need to learn to ask the right question. "Why am I losing" and "What would it be best for me to improve" are questions that providing a replay helps support.
"Am I hitting the APM wall" is not. Because the answer is going to be no.

I imagine I'm not the only one who can't watch replays because I'm at work, but thought I could help with your actual question ;)


I understand people are not going to have time to watch the replays, but if your not going to, then its pointless to advise me on my gameplay, if you have no idea what that looks like.

I know what kills me, i make drastic mistakes in league games all the time, not spilting my army for drops, misclicks, move command death, looking at infestors, and worst, not actively scouting. but I learn from these, adapt and get better. I just feel like my strats/game understanding is higher than i perform in game, if that makes sence.
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12/05/2012 02:36 PMPosted by Gilthanis
I understand people are not going to have time to watch the replays, but if your not going to, then its pointless to advise me on my gameplay, if you have no idea what that looks like.

Without watching replays, any advice would certainly be more general, and less tailored to you. It would be limited to answering specific questions or providing you links to guides. It seemed your original question was of that nature.

12/05/2012 02:36 PMPosted by Gilthanis
. I just feel like my strats/game understanding is higher than i perform in game, if that makes sence.

Welcome to SC2. :) It's a game of speed, control, and multi-tasking. Performance is very heavily dependent on mechanics. To do well in SC2, you have to think very quickly or else have enough experience and practice to respond without thinking. I think most of us could figure out what we *should* have done much better than we can actually execute in-game. That's pretty normal. How much faster you get with practice isn't something that would be obvious in a replay, but with less than 700 games played, it's very doubtful your speed and muscle memory have peaked.
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As blackadder said, a lot of us can take the time to watch the replays later when we are off work. We just check the forums when work is slow or on breaks. :D
We'll just try to offer what advice we can until somebody gets the chance to review them.

Just when the question is phrased about not having enough apm, our instant response is that this is not the right question because a lot of us actually don't have that much more apm if we even have more at all.
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As protoss it's really hard to get high APM with just your army, since you really don't want to split it up and be moving far around the map when you don't have to, and etc. The 3 main things I noticed in the replays were:

1) constantly make workers: when you're building up your probe count you want each nexus to always be building a worker. Just checking your nexus and keeping probe production up will really help your macro and your APM.

2) be more active with your scouting observers: since your army doesn't need much attention until you move out, try to keep moving around and keeping track of your opponent's army and tech. In the PvT game, your observer got killed when a missile turret was built under it, that shouldn't happen.

3) keep using chrono boost: your nexus energy was pretty high most of the time in those games
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I know this is probably frustrating to hear, but apm really does not matter in the slightest. I have beaten grandmaster players with around 60 apm when I'm feeling lazy, while they spam away and use inefficient actions to get 200-300. In any case, apm really isn't something that you can easily improve, I would advise working on perfecting basic macro mechanics like constantly making workers and units and chronoboosting and as you get better at those your apm will gradually rise by itself.
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12/05/2012 02:48 PMPosted by BlackAdder
Without watching replays, any advice would certainly be more general, and less tailored to you. It would be limited to answering specific questions or providing you links to guides. It seemed your original question was of that nature.


Touchè, i didnt look at it that way.

12/05/2012 02:48 PMPosted by BlackAdder
Welcome to SC2. :) It's a game of speed, control, and multi-tasking. Performance is very heavily dependent on mechanics. To do well in SC2, you have to think very quickly or else have enough experience and practice to respond without thinking. I think most of us could figure out what we *should* have done much better than we can actually execute in-game. That's pretty normal. How much faster you get with practice isn't something that would be obvious in a replay, but with less than 700 games played, it's very doubtful your speed and muscle memory have peaked.


I suppose it could be a physical control thing, i know im mentally 5 steps faster than i can get the action handled on the keyboard, finger pushups mabey? lol :P

As protoss it's really hard to get high APM with just your army, since you really don't want to split it up and be moving far around the map when you don't have to, and etc. The 3 main things I noticed in the replays were:

1) constantly make workers: when you're building up your probe count you want each nexus to always be building a worker. Just checking your nexus and keeping probe production up will really help your macro and your APM.

2) be more active with your scouting observers: since your army doesn't need much attention until you move out, try to keep moving around and keeping track of your opponent's army and tech. In the PvT game, your observer got killed when a missile turret was built under it, that shouldn't happen.

3) keep using chrono boost: your nexus energy was pretty high most of the time in those games


Good tip on the obs, i tend to get caught up in tech/upgrades etc when macroing and that obs could help alot. I do try to use chronoboost as much as possible, probs, upgrades, collosi/obs, warpgates but i def could use it alot more.

Ive never understood the consistent probes, i mean if your saturated, y continue, and wouldn't that intrupt army size, or tech? and what if my opponent cuts probes and pushes? thats an instant loss, im behind in army. Thanks for the imput much appreciated :D
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As blackadder said, a lot of us can take the time to watch the replays later when we are off work. We just check the forums when work is slow or on breaks. :D
We'll just try to offer what advice we can until somebody gets the chance to review them.

Just when the question is phrased about not having enough apm, our instant response is that this is not the right question because a lot of us actually don't have that much more apm if we even have more at all.


Atleast I'm not the only one that uses the SC2 forums as a way to pass time when I'm bored at work.

I'll watch the replays when I get off work (1 hour from now)

But also, I would agree that you may have worded your question incorrectly.
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Atleast I'm not the only one that uses the SC2 forums as a way to pass time when I'm bored at work.

I'll watch the replays when I get off work (1 hour from now)

But also, I would agree that you may have worded your question incorrectly.


Yes, in retrospect thats entirely possible lol :D
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