StarCraft® II

Apm wall

Posts: 3,501
12/05/2012 04:34 PMPosted by Gilthanis
I suppose it could be a physical control thing, i know im mentally 5 steps faster than i can get the action handled on the keyboard, finger pushups mabey? lol :P

That's an interesting observation to me, because I'm not. I can't keep up with all the things going on on the map as well as my battle plan, at least not well. I switch my view between different parts of the screen at a reasonable rate, but I have trouble thinking about anything that's not on the screen, so I'm always missing timings, etc.
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Posts: 734

Ive never understood the consistent probes, i mean if your saturated, y continue, and wouldn't that intrupt army size, or tech? and what if my opponent cuts probes and pushes? thats an instant loss, im behind in army. Thanks for the imput much appreciated :D


What I meant to say is more that you should be constatnly be keeping your buildings producing units when you intend to be making units, that is to say keeping your production constant and your money low. For example, players can fall behind in macro by making a probe at each nexus, then leaving the nexus idle for a few seconds before queueing up another probe. On the other hand, by queueing up 3 or 4 probes at each nexus, you're unable to use that money for other things. Just checking your buildings constantly takes a lot of APM, but will help your macro greatly. It's the same for gateways before warpgate and other unit producing buildings, but you see the biggest losses in efficiency with probe production, since you always have to build so many of them and there is always an opportunity to fall behind in macro.
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Posts: 2,110
PvT game
You build your pylon at the ramp and on 10 supply instead of 9 so you start off supply blocked.
You aren't chronoboosting your probes.
I have no idea why you walled your main or left a probe on hold position. Marines don't do run-byes
You use chrono on your zealot and then it just sits there. You use chrono on your warpgate and it finishes before your other 2 gateways and the extra time take off is wasted.
You went robo before getting gates 2 and 3. This doesn't provide much benefit besides and early observer, but the observer doesn't tell you anything that scouting stalker can't. This is also overly safe and can put you behind a gasless expand. Learn a 1-gate expand You'll still get the observer in time for the banshees
You cut probes at 23 when you only have 16 mining in your main. You can go up to 24 and they still provide additional income. Then you just transfer the extras from your main to your natural and have instant saturation. Even then for their cost 20 workers on a base for minerals is better than 16. Also that way when you start losing probes to banshees you have extras.
At 15 minutes with minimal engagements you should be at over 60 probes on 3 bases with a maxed or near maxed army and 1/1 if not 2/2 upgrades and both colossus and templar tech. You are at 98 supply with 1/0 upgrades and your twilight council just finishing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PvZ
I believe I'm looking at the same build as last game with the same flaws. Learn the FFE. It will help.
At 8:50 parting's immortal/sentry all-in pushes out at with 3 immortals, 1 stalker, 1 zealot, 7 sentries, with a warp prism rallied and 7 gateways. His probe count is at 44 which is full saturation on 2 bases. Oh and he has 1/0 upgrades
In comparison at 8:50 you have 28 probes. 1 immortal, 2 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries with 5 total gateways if you count the 2 that are warping in and no wall-off at your natural.
12 minutes when a zerg doing the stephano roach max has 72 drones and hits 200/200 supply on roaches you have 0/0 upgrades. 46 probes on 2 bases. 11 units at 73 total supply. Colossus tech with no colossus.
At 16:30 when zerg should have 4/5 bases with infestor broodlord off a normal build (not even counting fast hive) You are at 106 supply taking a 3rd base.
You still only go up to 59 probes which isn't enough for full saturation on 3 bases at the 20 minute mark where the first engagement happens.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I say this not to be insulting. I say it to be helpful. Just keep building probes and learn a more standard build for your matchups. You are putting yourself so far behind with your build orders and lack of probes that you simply can't win at a higher level because you will have half the army of a player with 30 apm who builds their economy well.
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Posts: 18
PvT game
You build your pylon at the ramp and on 10 supply instead of 9 so you start off supply blocked.
You aren't chronoboosting your probes.
I have no idea why you walled your main or left a probe on hold position. Marines don't do run-byes
You use chrono on your zealot and then it just sits there. You use chrono on your warpgate and it finishes before your other 2 gateways and the extra time take off is wasted.
You went robo before getting gates 2 and 3. This doesn't provide much benefit besides and early observer, but the observer doesn't tell you anything that scouting stalker can't. This is also overly safe and can put you behind a gasless expand. Learn a 1-gate expand You'll still get the observer in time for the banshees
You cut probes at 23 when you only have 16 mining in your main. You can go up to 24 and they still provide additional income. Then you just transfer the extras from your main to your natural and have instant saturation. Even then for their cost 20 workers on a base for minerals is better than 16. Also that way when you start losing probes to banshees you have extras.
At 15 minutes with minimal engagements you should be at over 60 probes on 3 bases with a maxed or near maxed army and 1/1 if not 2/2 upgrades and both colossus and templar tech. You are at 98 supply with 1/0 upgrades and your twilight council just finishing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PvZ
I believe I'm looking at the same build as last game with the same flaws. Learn the FFE. It will help.
At 8:50 parting's immortal/sentry all-in pushes out at with 3 immortals, 1 stalker, 1 zealot, 7 sentries, with a warp prism rallied and 7 gateways. His probe count is at 44 which is full saturation on 2 bases. Oh and he has 1/0 upgrades
In comparison at 8:50 you have 28 probes. 1 immortal, 2 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries with 5 total gateways if you count the 2 that are warping in and no wall-off at your natural.
12 minutes when a zerg doing the stephano roach max has 72 drones and hits 200/200 supply on roaches you have 0/0 upgrades. 46 probes on 2 bases. 11 units at 73 total supply. Colossus tech with no colossus.
At 16:30 when zerg should have 4/5 bases with infestor broodlord off a normal build (not even counting fast hive) You are at 106 supply taking a 3rd base.
You still only go up to 59 probes which isn't enough for full saturation on 3 bases at the 20 minute mark where the first engagement happens.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I say this not to be insulting. I say it to be helpful. Just keep building probes and learn a more standard build for your matchups. You are putting yourself so far behind with your build orders and lack of probes that you simply can't win at a higher level because you will have half the army of a player with 30 apm who builds their economy well.


Thank you for the observations, they will prove to be very helpful. I was under the impression that full saturation was 2 lines, or 16 probes on the mineral line, and 3 on each refinery, for a total of 22 to be saturated. So that extra economy will help me immencly. As i was saying in other post i feel eco starved which is hurting me.

However against the terran oppenent I still wall off, in case of the 6-10 marine + scv push, or the conc maurauder. the zealot will die but it should give me enough time to chronoboost out a sentry.

I will try to work on my saturation, which will assist with the other issues you pointed out.
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Posts: 494
you need to play more... thats it. Learn what to do... and get faster at it. Theres always things to improve and the more you practice the more you will be able to do.
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Posts: 324
One of the keys to increase your effective APM is to be fast at just spamming everything all the time. It makes you play faster... don't think of it as just clicking to inflate your APM ... it really does have effects on your effective APM as well.
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Posts: 3,647
apm isn't a limit of muscles ore your keyboard layout, it's a mental limit. you can do everything you need to if you can think of them fast enough, and have a muscle memory way of doing it.

My suggestion,
1) load up a few hundred games vs ai (or ladder if you dont' care about losing a ton). do EVERY possible action for your race 5 times each game the FASTEST possible way. This is the difference between typing "t", then "h", then "e" to spell the, and just thinking the and having your hands premptively move to the neccessary keys. You might be more familiar with the texting concept where you're thumb is moving to the next key the instant the last was pressed without any mental effort from you.

This means have a hotkey, every game, for your forge that is easy to reach, pressing it, starting your attack upgrade, do something else, go back and cancel said upgrade and start another, etc. multiple times each game. If you have a muscle memory command for "start upgrades now" you'll be able to do that in 2 seconds without having to think "click minimap for area of forges, click forges after you find them, look for hotkey for weapons, press hotkey for weapons, click back to where I was" That's like 10 different small problems your brain and hands have to solve before you can move on to the next thing, where having that muscle concept of "4, f" is so much simpler and brainless.

2) get a friend on another computer with sc2, have them load up a rep that a pro does that you like. Have them tell you, as the replay is playing at faster speed, exactly what the pro is doing (eg: "start + 1 attack, build 2 probes, ff their main ramp, build cyber core in main, get another 2 pylons started). Try to keep up with the pro. If you have your muscle memory down pat you can emulate that pro perfectly with literally no effort from you, but if you ever find yourself falling behind you need to practice those actions that you slow down on even more.

I 100% guarantee you can operate on 200+ apm if you spend the time to do the above (baring some physical barriers, which you probably don't have). Your apm is a reflection of how fast you think, and how good your muscle memory is for doing that thinking.
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Posts: 1,483
APM is just like Marksmanship. It doesn't matter how many times you fire that rifle if you never hit your mark. Same concept in SC2. If you are accurate and efficient with your clicks, 80 APM is perfectly fine!
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Posts: 1,763
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-132-back-to-the-basics-the-mental-checklist-3751430

This may help
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Posts: 125
I understand people are not going to have time to watch the replays, but if your not going to, then its pointless to advise me on my gameplay, if you have no idea what that looks like.

I know what kills me, i make drastic mistakes in league games all the time, not spilting my army for drops, misclicks, move command death, looking at infestors, and worst, not actively scouting. but I learn from these, adapt and get better. I just feel like my strats/game understanding is higher than i perform in game, if that makes sence.


Then you need to ask for help with those specific things. Asking for help increasing is going to give you just that. Ways to increase your apm. You know, like the answer I gave but you just came back saying you wanted help with something else and my answer was a bad one. Act all offended if you want that people aren't watching your replays.

FYI, watching replays isn't going to do even the slightest bit to figuring out why your apm might be low. No one can see from a replay what you're thinking, they only see what you do, and how quickly you can process what's going on in the game is a much bigger impact on apm than how quickly you hit buttons. If you spend 2 minutes watching your army walk across the map, that's wasted time.

The answer I gave you is something very specific you can do to increase your effective apm. Constantly thinking 'what is the next task' will make the game flow better in your mind and you'll always be doing something.
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Posts: 18
Then you need to ask for help with those specific things. Asking for help increasing is going to give you just that. Ways to increase your apm. You know, like the answer I gave but you just came back saying you wanted help with something else and my answer was a bad one. Act all offended if you want that people aren't watching your replays.

FYI, watching replays isn't going to do even the slightest bit to figuring out why your apm might be low. No one can see from a replay what you're thinking, they only see what you do, and how quickly you can process what's going on in the game is a much bigger impact on apm than how quickly you hit buttons. If you spend 2 minutes watching your army walk across the map, that's wasted time.

The answer I gave you is something very specific you can do to increase your effective apm. Constantly thinking 'what is the next task' will make the game flow better in your mind and you'll always be doing something.


Thanks for the advice, but i think the issue was fixed. May i add, by a player that watched the replays and gave constructive feedback. I was not saturating my bases fully, making me eco starved putting me at a disadvantage and in a macro game limiting my actions available. If you had watched the replays, im sure you would ahve been able to point out the same thing, instead of telling me about critical thinking, which is somthing that I already do :D
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Posts: 37
Iv been been playing toss for kicks recently and I feel it's way less amp required at least for macro. My z amp is about 120 but my toss drops down to 60 (macroing) if you focus on your micro that's should push it up. I feel toss needs gains there amp in microing
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Posts: 1,367
Then you need to ask for help with those specific things. Asking for help increasing is going to give you just that. Ways to increase your apm. You know, like the answer I gave but you just came back saying you wanted help with something else and my answer was a bad one. Act all offended if you want that people aren't watching your replays.

FYI, watching replays isn't going to do even the slightest bit to figuring out why your apm might be low. No one can see from a replay what you're thinking, they only see what you do, and how quickly you can process what's going on in the game is a much bigger impact on apm than how quickly you hit buttons. If you spend 2 minutes watching your army walk across the map, that's wasted time.

The answer I gave you is something very specific you can do to increase your effective apm. Constantly thinking 'what is the next task' will make the game flow better in your mind and you'll always be doing something.


Thanks for the advice, but i think the issue was fixed. May i add, by a player that watched the replays and gave constructive feedback. I was not saturating my bases fully, making me eco starved putting me at a disadvantage and in a macro game limiting my actions available. If you had watched the replays, im sure you would ahve been able to point out the same thing, instead of telling me about critical thinking, which is somthing that I already do :D


you were correct with your initial thought of 22 per base, that is the correct amount of saturation per base. 16 on minerals + 3 on each refinery.

whomever told you to put more on each base was wrong.

24 on minerals does give more income than 16, but the income increase PER PROBE is much lower once you go beyond 16.

You want to end up with 70 probes total. 3 bases fully saturated (22+22+22) and a few extra probes.

If you have more than 22 probes at your main, you need to expand.
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Posts: 2,697
I'm only interested in raising my effective apm


The only tried and true way to increase your apm is with steady, persistent practice. I believe Moon said this and I'm paraphrasing of course.

Don't assume pros spam either. Cycling through your production facilities quickly, looking for something that is not building may seem like spam to the untrained eye, but there is more going on. This sort of thing will increase your apm reading, but it, in and of itself does not make you a better player.

My understanding is this, better players will have high apm, but having high apm does not make you a better player. You get faster at stuff through repetition. Any piano students here? You'll understand this right away.

EDIT: I started with around 30 apm and now average around 130, so progress is possible and frankly, inevitable if you just keep practicing.
Edited by EllisD on 12/10/2012 10:06 AM PST
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Posts: 318


Thanks for the advice, but i think the issue was fixed. May i add, by a player that watched the replays and gave constructive feedback. I was not saturating my bases fully, making me eco starved putting me at a disadvantage and in a macro game limiting my actions available. If you had watched the replays, im sure you would have been able to point out the same thing, instead of telling me about critical thinking, which is somthing that I already do :D


I watched the PvZ game and I don't think your problem can be entirely limited to probe production (which was a problem yes). The bigger problem this game in particular was the fact that you made 9 cannons to defend 2 bases, and later 16 cannons to defend 3. This was after scouting spire (and telling your opponent that you scouted it, don't do that lol). If you focused your money instead on tech you would have a vastly larger army faster.

If you think about the money you dumped into cannons, 9x150 = 1350 minerals, all for tech which never actually came. Combine that with the fact that you took late gas at your natural, and you could have had a 3rd base up and running in half the time as well as blink, a better army, and storm/archons ready. Make that 16x150 and that is 2,400 minerals essentially wasted (subtract maybe 3-4 cannons from that equation). If you think about it, you were worried about mutas so you made a ton of cannons and still went for colossus tech, when you should have teched to blink and then storm, and when you scout further that he has an infestation pit already, you can simply push and win the game at that point because he isn't spending money on an army.

This is essentially a scouting problem. If you kept an eye on your observer and were actually useful with your scouting probe, you would be way more confident in controlling your army and choosing tech, and not feel like you have to take a late third with a million panic cannons. Like wraith already said, you should be FFE, or at least you should gateway expand without the robo. If you are actually using your probe scout properly, you will check to see if he takes gas, when his expansion goes down, and if he takes a 3rd base before the 5:20 mark. Those three things tell you enough to react safely without getting an observer super early. If you really prefer gateway expand (which is fine, minus robo) you can get hallucination for phoenix scouting.

I agree that you need to make more probes, but that is something anyone could tell you just by looking at your league. That sounds like the lesson you took out of replay analysis and it isn't particularly helpful on its own.

Also, don't be so arrogant to assume that you understand the game sufficiently and your problem right now is apm, because you are making the wrong decisions, not scouting properly, and using an inefficient starting build.
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