The future of SC2 and custom mapping

Posts: 129
It's been well over 2 years since the release of sc2. Many mappers and modders have come and gone, primarily due to the popularity system. Regardless, there are still those of us out there trying to develop and improve the modding scene, however we face conflicts. Some of us are rebuilding outdated/abandoned games, yet the old (and sometimes very broken) maps remain at the top of the popularity list, and it makes it impossible to compete with. Players simply dont want to play the "newer updated version" because it takes too long to fill, so after 1-2 games they go back to the original.

Are there an intentions from blizzard at addressing this?

I know blizzard doesn't like to remove the maps/mods of other players, but sometimes its necessary to clean out all the old skeletons. Heck, put the mod name under a reserved status for a time frame so if the original authors come back, they can re-establish their game/pick up where they left off. But chances are, they're gone for good and have no interest at coming back. Meanwhile, those of us who work daily to improve the sc2 environment are left suffering.

And look on the bright side, youd get more players seeing all the new features sc2 is bringing instead of playing games based on version 1.0, not to mention youd be using less server resources, and every penny helps in this economy ;)
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Posts: 1,395
They hid maps with 1.5, but the top ten list, that no longer do anything, (not all), but the majority do nothing to update their projects anymore, They just came back for 1 time and re-uploaded so it would show on the arcade.

I would like to make a suggestion.

If a map isnt updated once a month it is hidden this would get those abandoned projects gone for good.

If a mapper isnt willing to support his project anymore, then should that project be taking up space?
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Posts: 129
Hmmm. Imagine if a blizzard employee didn't show up for work for a month? what would happen? lol

Anyway, I'd say 3 months. 1 month is too short for people with jobs, families, etc, who basically do work for free (creating mods that support a game that pays another company and its employees instead of putting food on their own table) and 6 months is too extensive for technology which constantly changes.
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Posts: 535
I am greatly against any cleanup of maps since it also means that decent yet unupdated maps get shoveled away.

Some of the past mapmakers did put a ton of hours into their map but they lost interest due to issues with the popularity system. Shoveling would just show a lack of respect and add insult to injury to their efforts.

Why would a previous decent mapmaker come back if the system just shown the middle finger to his old maps? It's like a final confirmation that they shouldn't be there, not give Blizzard a second/third/etc. chance and move on.

Ultimately, shoveling WON'T fix any issues with the popularity system. At best, it just mean said unupdated popular maps will be remade to retake the spot. Worse, the remake can have worse bugs/balance if the new mapmaker is incompetent.

The real fixes are those that truly encourage players to use the open game list as their first list and stop using the popularity system as their main. New decent maps are much likely to be seen, filled faster and actually played that way.

EDIT : Another flaw I see of shoveling is about melee maps. Often you get a final version quickly and you barely/never update it. Shoveling implies they easily get cut out first.
Edited by Honejasi on 12/10/2012 10:28 PM PST
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Posts: 733
The problem is that the top 10 list is a huge dung heap and because of the limited player base on SC2, good maps people enjoy will never surface to the top. I remember 5-10 years after BW came out I could still make any of the 3 popular vampire games and get them full or close to full. I think everyone remembers the simplistic city siege that was still so so fun.

There was also the legendary map in size and scoop that had like 5-6 vampires and 3-4 hunters. You could be any of the 13 vampire clans and the ultimate goal was to of course siege the center town.

Anyhow, the current system is a giant pile of poop and a likely factor holding me back from the expansion as the only reason I bought SC2 was for the custom maps.
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Posts: 1,395
Honjetsu...

If someone quits, and no longer updates their project, the maps should get hidden. Why keep it there?, also your Edit point, is mute, since this would not apply to Melee maps, but what it would apply to, are all of those crummy Cortex maps, that are the same map with a different terrain, Broken maps that Blizzard patches have broken, Long forgotten maps, Maps that have no other purpose but to take up space (Pobes vs zeelots). It would cure all these prolem maps, They wont be deleted, just hidden, so if the maker wants them to show on the popularity list they would show.
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Posts: 47
I want to echo Honejasi: this proposal is preposterous. Like I've said elsewhere, the real problem is that the current system does not solve the coordination and discovery problems well at all and detracts from players' and mapmakers' abilities to form diverse, niche communities. Dropping some of the popular maps does not solve these problems in any appreciable way; a default-rule open games list or some other similarly effective system might. Don't let one's interests as a mapmaker (trying to get people to actually enjoy your creation) eclipse your interest in the health of the total community. Our desire here should not just be to make it possible for new maps to climb popularity ladders; our desire here should be for large OR small communities of players to be able to coordinate a game around any map, popular or not. In other words, this won't really help.

I also like what Honejasi said about how this disrespects mapmakers who may have left a pretty decent map or who left out of disgust of the system we all know is probably actually worth leaving over.

IShadowWolf, you be trolling? Honejasi gave good reasons why to keep a map there - it might actually be okay. Also, SOLIDARITY with the mapmakers who left over the system is a must. The proposal would not cure any problems, either, like we've said.
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Posts: 129
12/10/2012 10:18 PMPosted by Honejasi
Why would a previous decent mapmaker come back if the system just shown the middle finger to his old maps? It's like a final confirmation that they shouldn't be there, not give Blizzard a second/third/etc. chance and move on.


Common sense would have to be used in the clean up process. You couldnt just say "X time and youre gone", but regardless, that statement there is total bull. You basically said "We dont want to hurt the feelings of the people that are gone, so instead lets give the middle finger to the people who are actively participating". That is EXACTLY the reason most of the original developers left in the first place. Total disregard for the current active community.

The old maps dont have to be removed, but archived most definitely. An archived map should be prevented from showing up on any of the popularity lists and only found via "open games" lists (or similar).

And on a side note, AS a map maker, I would rather someone archive or remove my maps if they were outdated and/or broken. This isn't "hoarders" here. Get rid of the junk to make room for new methods. If I had to decided to leave and come back to find my map archived, you know what i'd do? I'd republish it. Simple as that. I wouldn't throw a giant temper tantrum because someone decided to clean house while I was gone.
Edited by ckSynergy on 12/11/2012 1:25 PM PST
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Posts: 47
Dude, what in the world are you talking about? What maps are there out there high on the popularity list that suffer from such grave flaws that they deserve to be "archived"? I just don't believe your assumption here.

I'm glad you're pulling back a bit and admitting you'd want them to be available from the open games list - seeing your proposal as a way to improve popularity makes it a bit different. But even then, like I said above, it just doesn't seem to be a problem.

Ultimately, rigging the game for new mapmakers when competing for top spots is just not a solution to the problems of the community as a whole. Like Honejasi said, you want to trade one set of popular maps for another. No! It would be much better to have a system that more fully supports a diverse array of niche games.

EDIT: To be clear, if you fix the discovery and coordination problems, that should automatically makes it relatively easier for entirely new concepts or improved versions of maps in established genres to take off. (Although it's never *really* easy for new maps to improve in popularity, which we should all remember.) That's why I don't think it's worth worrying about popularity; we should be asking for steak, not ketchup for canned spam.
Edited by euknemarchon on 12/11/2012 1:38 PM PST
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Posts: 69
I say do away with the popularity system I really think it does more harm than good there wasn't any problem with how BW did it

the popular games would get played more already I mean we don't really need to be told what we like if we like a game we will go to it
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Posts: 28
There was a problem with the way brood war did it. Everyone always looks back with rose tinted glasses. when you created a map in the old system it would goto the top of the list, pushing everything else down. The longer a lobby was up waiting for people to join the farther you had to scroll to find that lobby, if it even showed up at all! the list was only so long when refreshed, and lobbies would disappear off the bottom of the list. I remember spending just as long trying to get a full lobby, because everyone would join a game, wait for it to fill up... wait for everyone to d/l the map.. a few people leave, wait wait wait and no one else ever came because your lobby was off the bottom of the list, everyone would then leave and rehost!

Blizzard; please make EMPTY lobbies dim, those waiting for players brighter, and those which only need 1 or 2 more people for a full game glow even brighter, or give some other indication while browsing which lobbies are full of people, and which are a barren wasteland.

Also, on the open games list please list older lobbies first by default. They should be almost full and need the exposure more than a newly created lobby. You should also consider allowing us to SORT the list by slots available/lobby age/etc.

When it comes to old/broken/buggy/abandoned maps I have two thoughts.

1) the spotlight should be reserved for maps that ENHANCE the arcade experience.
Making 8 people wait around for 10-20 minutes to start a map that is bugged and unplayable is a negative experience and will just drive people away from the arcade.

2)If all content is only allowed a few weeks of rank #1 then kicked off the first page for a while new maps will have to rise up. If the map was good enough it will rise up again when the new #1's get kicked out. people won't go search for and bring back a broken map to the front page as much as they will continue to play a broken map already on the first page because they don't know any better / can't play anything else.
Edited by Weyoun on 12/13/2012 4:30 AM PST
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Posts: 1,100
12/10/2012 08:41 PMPosted by ckSynergy
Anyway, I'd say 3 months. 1 month is too short for people with jobs, families, etc, who basically do work for free (creating mods that support a game that pays another company and its employees instead of putting food on their own table) and 6 months is too extensive for technology which constantly changes.


What about an inactive flag.

I would say that map not updated in the last season will be flag as inactive for the next season until an update. Then if you search in the arcade map you could say hide inactive maps as an option. Then you would have maps only recently modified. But you could as well search in the old maps if you don't hide the inactive maps.
Edited by Fenix on 12/13/2012 8:56 AM PST
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Posts: 1,395
That wouldnt work fenix, What we are asking is that the inactive games are removed from teh list and archived, Now I would be fine if players could still SEARCH for the map, but it shouldnt show up on any list.
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Posts: 535
What about an inactive flag.

I would say that map not updated in the last season will be flag as inactive for the next season until an update. Then if you search in the arcade map you could say hide inactive maps as an option. Then you would have maps only recently modified. But you could as well search in the old maps if you don't hide the inactive maps.


My main opposition is mostly towards the plain unsearchable removal of maps.

However, your solution is probably the best for those in favor of trying to cycle their popularity list out of old unupdated maps without any real side consequences.

It still won't solve the custom map scene, far from it as many players' map habits die hard or at best will just play the different top 1 to X maps. However, it would aid to make it more tolerable.

However, I pretty much just see a ton of weight in favor of the open list over the popularity list being the only real solution for the custom map scene. Everything else tend to be just trying to make some version 1.5/2/2.5/3/etc of the popularity list that essentially lure the same neverending problems but often just a bit worst or a bit better.
Edited by Honejasi on 12/13/2012 12:24 PM PST
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Posts: 328
12/13/2012 04:27 AMPosted by Weyoun
There was a problem with the way brood war did it. Everyone always looks back with rose tinted glasses. when you created a map in the old system it would goto the top of the list, pushing everything else down. The longer a lobby was up waiting for people to join the farther you had to scroll to find that lobby, if it even showed up at all! the list was only so long when refreshed, and lobbies would disappear off the bottom of the list. I remember spending just as long trying to get a full lobby, because everyone would join a game, wait for it to fill up... wait for everyone to d/l the map.. a few people leave, wait wait wait and no one else ever came because your lobby was off the bottom of the list, everyone would then leave and rehost!


In SC1 and War3 we were able to refresh by closing and opening all the slots which brings your game back to the top of the list. The current system is far superior in some aspects but flawed and lacking in others.

12/13/2012 04:27 AMPosted by Weyoun
Blizzard; please make EMPTY lobbies dim, those waiting for players brighter, and those which only need 1 or 2 more people for a full game glow even brighter, or give some other indication while browsing which lobbies are full of people, and which are a barren wasteland.


There are no such things as empty lobbies and making certain lobbies glow depending on how man players they got is silly and not necessary for the reason below takes care of the problem.

12/13/2012 04:27 AMPosted by Weyoun
Also, on the open games list please list older lobbies first by default. They should be almost full and need the exposure more than a newly created lobby. You should also consider allowing us to SORT the list by slots available/lobby age/etc.


This will not work either, because now the situation becomes worse for newer lobbies since they'll be all the way at the bottom and will probably take a long time to get close to the top, no one is going to join your lobby when it's on page 3+, they won't look that far... Although this will make it better for lobbies that have been open for a long time, it will also make things a LOT worse for newer lobbies; essentially you'd be forced to wait x amount of time for your lobby to rise enough before it gets enough exposure for people to start joining it, and that x directly depends on how fast the lobbies on top can fill.

Not to mention that you might have a bunch of maps sitting on top that simply no one wants to join, they'll stay there for a long time and before you know it, page 1 is filled with crappy maps that no one wants to join, so people are now forced to go to pages 2+ and look there.

Can people please stop suggesting to reverse the order of the open list, it WILL NOT WORK.

Here's what will work:

1) open list is the default page of the arcade
2) open list is NOT static, there are no "pages", it's a "wheel" that rotates by default, when you click on a map it stops to rotate and centers it. New lobbies are added either at the "tail", or at a random positions.

let's me say this again in hopes of someone at blizzard is reading

Here's what will work:

1) open list is the default page of the arcade
2) open list is NOT static, there are no "pages", it's a "wheel" that rotates by default, when you click on a map it stops to rotate and centers it. New lobbies are added either at the "tail", or at a random positions.

#2 reminds us of the famous bug where the pop list kept cycling, and that was the best time we've ever had, all sorts of maps were getting full lobbies why? because people SAW them.
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Posts: 2
I know this has happened with Island Defense before where the map maker up and leaves without pulling his version of the map so when someone else goes to continure the project they have to fight the broken map in order to replace it in the popularity.
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Posts: 20
This happened to Hero Attack as well. There really needs to be something in place for map makers who up and quit the game entirely. For months now players have been playing a broken version that remains on the front page because they don't know that another player has resumed work on it. Right now it is on page 4 after a few months of pulling people from the original, but nobody wants to wait 15 minutes for a lobby to fill up so they just say forget about it and play on the broken map.
Edited by Zebo on 12/15/2012 10:05 PM PST
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Posts: 12
I approve on most of the opinions here

3D City Defense has just been released 72 hours ago and its the new Leader in the 3D Direction games.. But with the arcade system, Barely anyone know`s about its existance and its obviously 1 of the best maps that bnet will ever have...

But can it get recognise? well definitly not fast enough

Youtube : 3D City Defense
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Posts: 20
...Really Blizzard? You took an already front page map and put them on the spotlight. Did a Mr. Wilson decide that he wanted to further the sc2 project?
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Posts: 1,395
12/16/2012 06:04 PMPosted by Zebo
...Really Blizzard? You took an already front page map and put them on the spotlight. Did a Mr. Wilson decide that he wanted to further the sc2 project?
TD Tycoon is arguably the greatest TD out there, any other map, and I would be against it. But the raw work he put into that one it deserves to be put on page 1, it has an amazing level of polish that i have never seen in any other work.
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