StarCraft® II

Why would you ever use Stalkers?

Posts: 1,219
01/02/2013 02:41 PMPosted by EllisD
You're forgetting about all that gas you save. What if you had 4 void rays instead of 6 stalkers? 4 void rays + chargelots is definitely better vs roaches than stalkers are.


You won't build 4 void rays faster than 6 stalkers in a real game. The fastest you could make them would require 600 minerals and 600 gas in the production of 4 starports.

Early game I'd much rather have an equal amount of carriers, but this isn't a realistic situation that would arise.


That's fair, but it seems like we were talking about the stalker purely in terms of its ability once it's on the field.

If we're taking build time + realistic game scenarios into account, then I can agree that the stalker is a decent stopgap unit that can make up your army until the better tech is ready, but looking at it from a pure unit vs unit comparison I still wouldn't make them if I had better tech available. I'd rather use the gateways on chargelots and templars.
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Posts: 158
I checked his math, probes actually have a better cost/dps ratio than stalkers- even against armored (3 probes 9.9 DPS, 1 stalker 6.9 or 8.7 vs armored)- which is funny, but not a very useful statistic considering HP, range, speed, armor, etc. But it does highlight the fact that stalkers do have very low DPS for their cost, even if they have some other useful attributes.

So basically, if you have a specific reason why you need stalkers- i.e. you need to shoot up, or need blink to keep up with a very mobile army or exploit an immobile one- then they are useful. But as a general army unit they really aren't- the immortal is better (or at worst the same) in almost every way cost for cost (1 immortal =2 stalkers). Immortals are better than stalkers against hydras, roaches, ultras, marauders, tanks, thors, stalkers, other immortals, colossi, and archons. Basically the same as the stalker vs every other ground unit, except that stalkers can kite better and blink out of zergling surrounds. And obviously stalkers can warp in, so they're better at reinforcing, but if I have time and my opponent isn't making much air then I'd pick immortals almost every time.

Now I realize that saying stalkers are useful against some things and not against others is a stupid criticism, as that is true for every unit in the game. But I think that what frustrates a lot of people about stalkers is that they are more specialized and less general-purpose than most other tier 1 units- past the early game they're really only useful vs. air (and even w/ air, they lose their effectiveness against large air armies). For their cost, they really should have more strength than that, especially since most strategies are focused more on ground units than air.
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Posts: 1,421
Show us a replay of you beating a master without using stalkers. And to be sure theres no cheese, make it a game in which BOTH players have at least 3 bases at one point. I spy zealot/archon.
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Posts: 1,219
01/02/2013 05:11 PMPosted by dharkness
Show us a replay of you beating a master without using stalkers. And to be sure theres no cheese, make it a game in which BOTH players have at least 3 bases at one point. I spy zealot/archon.


I definitely have PvZs vs diamonds where I've made zero stalkers and zero sentries.

I'm not sure about any vs masters (those go longer so it's less likely)
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Posts: 1,613
stalkers are awesome you are stupid i dont use grammer

what is a cake?


+1
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Posts: 3,676
No unit shines in all scenarios.
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Posts: 1,219
01/02/2013 06:03 PMPosted by Monkeylord
No unit shines in all scenarios.


Thanks, Confucius
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Posts: 605
They have approximately the cost-to-DPS ratio of a Probe. They have less than half the DPS of a Zealot for about twice the cost, and with only slightly more health/shields.

The only way I could see Stalkers being useful is if you need some early game anti-air (even then, there are better options) or if you are going for a quick all-in (again, there are better options). I don't make a single Stalker in any of my games if I can help it, and I made it to Masters on about 65 average APM. Am I missing the point of Stalkers or are they just underpowered?


How do you deals with vikings shooting down your collo if you don't have any anti air or do you rely on the sentries amazing DPS?
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Posts: 165
I never build that many stalkers any more. Maybe a few if I NEED them for anti air and such, but otherwise I would just build something else. :)
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Posts: 299
Stalkers are a necessity for every single Protoss! How else would one drive out the first enemy scouting worker that shows up in one's base?

In all seriousness, the Stalker has its roles. If you as a player feel that it is not good enough to use in your games, just don't use it.

-(X)-
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Posts: 1,219
They have approximately the cost-to-DPS ratio of a Probe. They have less than half the DPS of a Zealot for about twice the cost, and with only slightly more health/shields.

The only way I could see Stalkers being useful is if you need some early game anti-air (even then, there are better options) or if you are going for a quick all-in (again, there are better options). I don't make a single Stalker in any of my games if I can help it, and I made it to Masters on about 65 average APM. Am I missing the point of Stalkers or are they just underpowered?


How do you deals with vikings shooting down your collo if you don't have any anti air or do you rely on the sentries amazing DPS?


I usually storm + archon them, or honestly I just let them shoot the colossi while I clean out their army. I don't mind losing a couple of colossus while the rest of my army runs them over.
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Posts: 343
I checked his math, probes actually have a better cost/dps ratio than stalkers- even against armored (3 probes 9.9 DPS, 1 stalker 6.9 or 8.7 vs armored)- which is funny, but not a very useful statistic considering HP, range, speed, armor, etc. But it does highlight the fact that stalkers do have very low DPS for their cost, even if they have some other useful attributes.

So basically, if you have a specific reason why you need stalkers- i.e. you need to shoot up, or need blink to keep up with a very mobile army or exploit an immobile one- then they are useful. But as a general army unit they really aren't- the immortal is better (or at worst the same) in almost every way cost for cost (1 immortal =2 stalkers). Immortals are better than stalkers against hydras, roaches, ultras, marauders, tanks, thors, stalkers, other immortals, colossi, and archons. Basically the same as the stalker vs every other ground unit, except that stalkers can kite better and blink out of zergling surrounds. And obviously stalkers can warp in, so they're better at reinforcing, but if I have time and my opponent isn't making much air then I'd pick immortals almost every time.

Now I realize that saying stalkers are useful against some things and not against others is a stupid criticism, as that is true for every unit in the game. But I think that what frustrates a lot of people about stalkers is that they are more specialized and less general-purpose than most other tier 1 units- past the early game they're really only useful vs. air (and even w/ air, they lose their effectiveness against large air armies). For their cost, they really should have more strength than that, especially since most strategies are focused more on ground units than air.


1 stalker = 4.5 probes
125 mins + ( 50 gas x 3) = 275 minerals

Stalker = 275 Mins
Probe = 50 Mins

Stalker DPS = 6.9 + 2.8 armored
Probe DPS = 3.3

(6.9+2.8)/275 = .035
3.3/50 = .066

Probes actually have almost double dps/cost of stalkers.

Unstimmed Marine DPS/Cost = .14
Imba :P
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Posts: 1,152
Stalkers are not bad, I've been playing random and they are the only way to play against zerg in mid-late game scenarios.

In EVERY match up they are at least useful from the early to mid game especially with blink.

A jack of all trades is a master of none, so stop whining about stalkers because honestly they are the only unit in pvz that allows me to win as protoss.
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Posts: 1,006
01/01/2013 10:55 PMPosted by ComradEX
because blink stalkers are the most versatile unit in the game

False. That would be Marines...

On topic, stalkers are used heavily in the early game in all 3 match ups because they have a high base move speed (2.95) and 6 range, so they can easily trade cost effectively through kiting, even against a superior force, (unless it is speedlings/marauders). Once you get blink, their effectiveness early on is improved by a ton, though they still have low dps.

Blink makes them the most attainable protoss unit counter to Mutas, though once the Muta ball gets large enough, it can fight the stalkers due to the bouncing attacks, which is why the protoss player needs to get templar tech against Mutas if the Zerg player stays on the Muta teck.

Blink all ins are some of the strongest in the game, because stalkers can use terrain to get in and kill buildings and get out before the other player can kill the stalkers.

A buff to stalkers while retaining blink on the Twilight Council would be unreasonable, as it would make blink all ins even stronger than they already are, though they could add an upgrade to the Dark shrine, or move blink to the dark shrine and add another upgrade to either the Twilight council or the cyber core.
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Posts: 192
Arnt stalkers necessary to prevent terrans from kiteing your zealots everywhere early game?

And they are also necessary for defending against Mutalisks when you are going with a robotics bay build. (Ill prolly be going Air Toss alot more in HOTS though)

They are also almost a necessity for fending off roaches before you have colossus or void rays up, because Zealots cannot outrange or shoot over Forcefields.

Their Speed makes them excelent for Map control.
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Posts: 11
B-L-I-N-K-S-T-A-L-K-E-R
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Posts: 5
stalkers are good in almos teverything including late game often you see parting go blink stalker colsus
or immortal sentry
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Posts: 16
They are the Mutalisk equivalent for Protoss when you get blink. Massing Stalkers is usually a bad idea to use in a battle but it is excellent for map control and team games.
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Posts: 29
youre right, marauders pump them, roaches pump them, and then other stalkers and zealots and immortals if the toss has them pumps then. im beginning to never make them vs zerg and rarely vs terran. its BS how bad their DPS is.
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Posts: 447
I read this thread and then tried skytoss, lost v mass stalker. :/

My skytoss probably needs more work, though...
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