StarCraft® II

Mechanics of Starcraft: Warpgate

Here it is ladies and gentlemen, Warpgate. I don't think we are done with warp tech in general, so if you have any questions, please post them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPb4bQymnzA

If the physics stuff is starting to kill brain cells, no worries next up we will hit up the siege tank, trying to give everyone a break.
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We are fortunate enough to have a volunteer that is an engineer now, so hopefully he throws down. We have an extra special guest scheduled for the 14th of January for MoS, so you can all look forward to that (nobody say who it is! It's a super secret surprise)
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12/30/2012 08:34 PMPosted by Ponera
We are fortunate enough to have a volunteer that is an engineer now, so hopefully he throws down. We have an extra special guest scheduled for the 14th of January for MoS, so you can all look forward to that (nobody say who it is! It's a super secret surprise)
Yes, i can say definitively that both our engineer friend is helping me prepare incredibly for the next episode and that i have no idea about the special guest.
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MVP - StarCraft
Check it out, watch or skip through it, look at the funny pictures, and listen to the funny smart people.

gl hf, nerds.
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Guys, if you haven't subscribed to the channel yet, do so. Tons of new content is coming, 4 videos in total were uploaded today alone, check it all out.
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Check it out, watch or skip through it, look at the funny pictures, and listen to the funny smart people.

gl hf, nerds.


Doncrotch?

I apologize, i was misinterpreting your names pronounciation this entire time.

on another note while i am a total newb when it comes to physics, is there a chance that the warp gate tech is just light speed travel for individual structure and or units?

The protoss are a psionic race so perhaps their units would not "decompose" when traveling at light speed (As things that travel the speed of light must be pure energy)

And since time passes at a slower rate for objects traveling at hyper speeds that might explain why the cooldown for the warp-gate jump is actually longer than it takes for units to be warped in.

Just my thoughts.
Edited by SymphOny on 12/30/2012 10:28 PM PST
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Ok, imma do my best to answer you here:

12/30/2012 10:23 PMPosted by SymphOny
on another note while i am a total newb when it comes to physics, is there a chance that the warp gate tech is just light speed travel for individual structure and or units?
I would argue that the warp, both gravitic and entanglement is actually FTL, or faster than light. With a gravitic warp, instead of having to move at great speeds to get from point a to point b, you bring point a to point b, so it is instantaneous. With entanglement, the partner particle's reaction is similarly instantaneous, so again, FTL. The terran warp funtions very differently than the other two, however, giving us a "star trek" style warp, where once again the movement is FTL, but that explanation warrants an episode to itself, so i will leave you with the suspense.

12/30/2012 10:23 PMPosted by SymphOny
The protoss are a psionic race so perhaps their units would not "decompose" when traveling at light speed (As things that travel the speed of light must be pure energy)
"Decomposition", as you call it (not a great term, but you admitted to being a newb, so i won't give you too much crap here), is actually a property of matter according relativity. The psionic link would actually have very little to no impact here, sorry.

12/30/2012 10:23 PMPosted by SymphOny
And since time passes at a slower rate for objects traveling at hyper speeds that might explain why the cooldown for the warp-gate jump is actually longer than it takes for units to be warped in.
This is an interesting idea, i am going to do some reading on this, and see what i can come back with. Although, i'm not sure a certain potato-based being will be too happy about the usurpation of the "warpterslide" hypothesis.

Initially i am inclined to disagree, simply because i did not really think of the "warp" as travel. beyond that, time slows as you approach light speed, and the rate of time actually appears to approach zero, which in some way implies that if you are moving FTL that time may actually begin to move negatively, and this is actually the basis for a few time machine experiments i have heard of. However, with the advent of FTL neutrinos, the galactic "speed limit" may be higher than c, leaving room to be FTL and still greatly slowed timescales.

In short, I'll get back to you, you are smarter than you give yourself credit for. Thanks for the questions.
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I have one question, do you find a distinction between the vortex and the warpgate?

Another is, why must they be traveling at all? Can they not just construct themselves anew in another place, a quantum "clone" if you will? Their psionic abilities might warrant their continuing existence actually living THROUGH another form constructed exactly the same. It might explain their ability to live so long...death coming with the death of ones soul or current physical form and not from petty "old age" like we might.

The reason I say this is its significant differences from the terran warp, and we can see from nearly EVERYTHING the protoss build it appears and would seem to be clones of existing beings continuing the life of their owners through their mastery of psionic "soul" displacement (such as immortals etc) into physically constructed clones. It would be, I daresay, instant.

I dunno, just thinking
Edited by fingrknitter on 12/31/2012 12:06 AM PST
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Make sure to check out the video for psionics, featuring Dancraft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ziVtvEs-U&feature=youtu.be

Precursor to us trying to tackle psionic tech and even archons (zappy will have fun with these)

Sorry fingr, I am not in charge of MoS, so it's (thankfully) up to zappy to answer physics questions.
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12/31/2012 12:08 AMPosted by Ponera
Sorry fingr, I am not in charge of MoS, so it's (thankfully) up to zappy to answer physics questions.


Haha I gotta sleep now anyway ;) np
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zappys bedtime was hours ago, so that works out well.
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on another note while i am a total newb when it comes to physics, is there a chance that the warp gate tech is just light speed travel for individual structure and or units?
I would argue that the warp, both gravitic and entanglement is actually FTL, or faster than light. With a gravitic warp, instead of having to move at great speeds to get from point a to point b, you bring point a to point b, so it is instantaneous. With entanglement, the partner particle's reaction is similarly instantaneous, so again, FTL. The terran warp funtions very differently than the other two, however, giving us a "star trek" style warp, where once again the movement is FTL, but that explanation warrants an episode to itself, so i will leave you with the suspense.



It's confusing how you put it as "faster than light", because nothing can move faster than the speed of light. Then again, it isn't actually moving, it's just (if I understood your post right) teleporting(?). You have some wierd confusion there, claiming things actually travel faster than the speed of light. My physics professors would have literally thrown me a chair had I said something like that during their classes.

12/30/2012 10:45 PMPosted by zappy
With entanglement, the partner particle's reaction is similarly instantaneous, so again, FTL.


Well, it isn't moving either, it's just mimicking the other object state. In that sense, it isn't faster than light, because, well, it isn't moving at all.

12/30/2012 10:45 PMPosted by zappy
"Decomposition", as you call it (not a great term, but you admitted to being a newb, so i won't give you too much crap here), is actually a property of matter according relativity.


..whaat?

Things don't decompose as they get close to the speed of light. In fact, they gain mass, making it so that the only way to get to the speed of light is by actually having no mass while stationary.

I fail to see how this has any sense.

12/30/2012 10:45 PMPosted by zappy
beyond that, time slows as you approach light speed, and the rate of time actually appears to approach zero, which in some way implies that if you are moving FTL that time may actually begin to move negatively,


I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense either. You can't move FTL, and thus, you can't "move negatively"(?). Time slows down in such a way you'll never even reach the speed of light. It is possible to get really close to it (like 99,8% the speed of light), but you can't reach it.

12/30/2012 10:45 PMPosted by zappy
However, with the advent of FTL neutrinos, the galactic "speed limit" may be higher than c, leaving room to be FTL and still greatly slowed timescales.


As far as I know, those wierd neutrinos traveling faster than light are in a wierd position right now. No one has actually confirmed Einstein's theory is wrong, which is what would happen is those neutrinos were in fact moving FTL. I wouldn't throw this as proof of anything, as I doubt even the guys that claim to have discovered this are sure if it's correct.

I don't claim to be correct on everything, and please don't think I'm trying to discredit you. These forums are to generate discussion after all, right? :)
Edited by Deckard on 12/31/2012 1:13 AM PST
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AoS, MoS and all things on that channel are to generate discussion, I love your attitude Deckard. Have you considered volunteering to help us out beyond forum posts?

I honestly can't speak to any validity of your points, as I am so strong with the retard when it comes to physics. I keep to my simple biology :D
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WAIT! WHAT IF YOU WARP IN OBSERVERS! :O
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12/30/2012 10:23 PMPosted by SymphOny
And since time passes at a slower rate for objects traveling at hyper speeds that might explain why the cooldown for the warp-gate jump is actually longer than it takes for units to be warped in


its actually faster. for all units besides the sentry, the CD is 10 seconds faster than the build time. the sentry just shares the stalker CD time.

just for the record, not even the protoss fully understand how their warp technology works, having borrowed it from the zel'naga. so this one might have to stay as "its magic"
Edited by Kelthar on 12/31/2012 5:16 AM PST
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Another thing about the episode:

If the Pylon gets taken out while the Zealot is warping in, the Zealot get's trapped in the time-space rift whatever and the Warp-in is cancelled. I would consider it a pause in the warp process and when it resumes the Zealot is re warped or something like that.
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Another thing about the episode:

If the Pylon gets taken out while the Zealot is warping in, the Zealot get's trapped in the time-space rift whatever and the Warp-in is cancelled. I would consider it a pause in the warp process and when it resumes the Zealot is re warped or something like that.


they call it the "warp matrix"

which got me thinking, maybe warp gates work like warp prisms: they break a unit down into its component parts, retain a psionic blueprint of the unit, and then reassemble them wherever they are needed.
Edited by Kelthar on 12/31/2012 5:21 AM PST
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Kelthar you should be on the show.
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Ok, i'm going to apologize in advance, i am going to basically replay to the last ten posts in one, so this might get a bit lengthy.

12/31/2012 12:02 AMPosted by fingrknitter
I have one question, do you find a distinction between the vortex and the warpgate?
A vortex is essentially a smaller scale warp. If you remember the bed-sheet analogy, a vortex is more or less making a "dip" in the sheet deep enough that the units are unable to escape, but not one deep enough that it becomes a "well".

12/31/2012 12:02 AMPosted by fingrknitter
Another is, why must they be traveling at all? Can they not just construct themselves anew in another place, a quantum "clone" if you will? Their psionic abilities might warrant their continuing existence actually living THROUGH another form constructed exactly the same. It might explain their ability to live so long...death coming with the death of ones soul or current physical form and not from petty "old age" like we might.
This is a possibility, but i'm afraid i'm limited to my field, the way i can explain it is through warping, you may consider trying to ask ponera about the biology of reconstructing one's body and transferring memories and what not.

12/31/2012 12:02 AMPosted by fingrknitter
The reason I say this is its significant differences from the terran warp, and we can see from nearly EVERYTHING the protoss build it appears and would seem to be clones of existing beings continuing the life of their owners through their mastery of psionic "soul" displacement (such as immortals etc) into physically constructed clones. It would be, I daresay, instant.
Pretty much the same as above, i cannot vouch for the viability of such a procedure, but at the very least, the would still have to need to warp in the immortal suit, then move the soul.

12/31/2012 12:08 AMPosted by Ponera
Precursor to us trying to tackle psionic tech and even archons (zappy will have fun with these)
Please don't remind me, if we do this episode any time soon, it may be the first time i go into one with nothing more to say than, "i have no freaking clue." If anyone has ideas on this, let me know.

It's confusing how you put it as "faster than light", because nothing can move faster than the speed of light. Then again, it isn't actually moving, it's just (if I understood your post right) teleporting(?). You have some wierd confusion there, claiming things actually travel faster than the speed of light. My physics professors would have literally thrown me a chair had I said something like that during their classes.
I'm going to apologize in advance, because i will almost certainly insult you at one point in my response, nothing personal, but you have to be very careful about your word choices here. When i say FTL, or faster than light in this context, you have to realize a few things: 1)The protoss have technology and understanding far beyond ours, i know of no physics professor who will say that FTL travel is impossible, only those who say we currently have no feasible idea on how to do it. 2) FTL refers in this context not only to travel, as you may think of it, but in communication. FTL communication in quantum particles is as far as i know, not disputed, because of experiments revolving around entanglement, as well as low light interference. Low light interference is where you have a setup whereby a light source is pointed at a board with two slits, now, normally, light goes through both slits, interferes with one another, and creates a stripe pattern on the wall behind it. However, if you think normally, with Newtonian physics, letting only one photon through at a time would not produce this interference pattern. Obviously this is not what happens. In short, the photon is able to reach ahead and know that is should be interfering hence communicating FTL. Its all related to quantum mechanics, and if you aren't speaking in this context, most professors would flip chairs/tables/small buildings, so you have to be careful.

Well, it isn't moving either, it's just mimicking the other object state. In that sense, it isn't faster than light, because, well, it isn't moving at all.
But information, data, of some kind, is moving FTL.for instance, if i call someone in Europe, my phone sends radio waves that move at the speed of light, but if we have some entangled particles, i could send binary code with just the spin of of my particles, and my friend in Europe would have the code i'm sending instantaneously.

..whaat?

Things don't decompose as they get close to the speed of light. In fact, they gain mass, making it so that the only way to get to the speed of light is by actually having no mass while stationary.

I fail to see how this has any sense.
Correct, that is, i believe what he meant by decomposition, however, i did not feel the need at the time to mock him for that, but i doubt you would argue that psionics affect this mass gain, right?

12/31/2012 12:58 AMPosted by Deckard
I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense either. You can't move FTL, and thus, you can't "move negatively"(?). Time slows down in such a way you'll never even reach the speed of light. It is possible to get really close to it (like 99,8% the speed of light), but you can't reach it.
This is why i said "approaches". Be careful of the word choice, my intention was not to give everyone a class on quantum and relativistic physics, but once again, this attitude of "it just isn't possible" is a bad one. simply because we cannot do it doesn't mean it can't be done. Imagine trying to explain the moon landing to someone in the third century.

12/31/2012 12:58 AMPosted by Deckard
As far as I know, those wierd neutrinos traveling faster than light are in a wierd position right now. No one has actually confirmed Einstein's theory is wrong, which is what would happen is those neutrinos were in fact moving FTL. I wouldn't throw this as proof of anything, as I doubt even the guys that claim to have discovered this are sure if it's correct.
Correct, nobody seems to know what this means yet, and i find it funny how much you say "FTL isn't possible" then acknowledge this, but now worries. As i am home from college at the moment, i was actually talking to my high school physics teacher the other day, he is easily the smartest person i know, even smarter than my professor at college, and he was talking about how Einstein's theory could simply need to be modified with the advent of these FTL neutrinos. In fact, i was quoting him when i talked about the "galactic speed limit".

12/31/2012 12:58 AMPosted by Deckard
I don't claim to be correct on everything, and please don't think I'm trying to discredit you. These forums are to generate discussion after all, right? :)
Absolutely, I love these questions and i have no problem with you asking about anything that confuses you, the discussion is probably the most extensive look into protoss tech that has ever been attempted and i am glad you are trying to help us all understand it better. In fact, feel free to hit me up on skype if you want to be on an episode, you seem like a smart guy and we could always use more brainpower on the show, klemmcm is my username.

12/31/2012 05:03 AMPosted by VIPER
WAIT! WHAT IF YOU WARP IN OBSERVERS! :O
Observers are dropped down the well, they are the size of a potato.

12/31/2012 05:14 AMPosted by Kelthar
its actually faster. for all units besides the sentry, the CD is 10 seconds faster than the build time. the sentry just shares the stalker CD time.
This may be the inherent speed of the entanglement process coming to light, but i'm still working on this, so i don't have a full answer as of yet.

12/31/2012 05:14 AMPosted by Kelthar
just for the record, not even the protoss fully understand how their warp technology works, having borrowed it from the zel'naga. so this one might have to stay as "its magic"
See, now if you come on the show, you can tell me these things in the middle of it :). seriously though, klemmcm, add me on skype.

12/31/2012 05:15 AMPosted by VIPER
If the Pylon gets taken out while the Zealot is warping in, the Zealot get's trapped in the time-space rift whatever and the Warp-in is cancelled. I would consider it a pause in the warp process and when it resumes the Zealot is re warped or something like that.
I believe they get trapped in the conventional warp, but not the entanglement warpgate. With an Entanglement process, there isn't anywhere to be trapped, unless the protoss are using some sort of "hub". Imagine that when you want units, they actually get warped into the Nexus conventionally at the start, but then later are put anywhere on the battlefield through entanglement, and then the recharge time is warping another zealot into the Nexus.

they call it the "warp matrix"

which got me thinking, maybe warp gates work like warp prisms: they break a unit down into its component parts, retain a psionic blueprint of the unit, and then reassemble them wherever they are needed.
But then what does that mean in science speak? It may be that the psionic blueprint is entangling the zealot's particles with particles in the warp prism and storing the necessary information needed to reform the zealot with those particles. For instance, the zealot is actually in, say, the nexus, and then, through entanglement, brought on to the battlefield as the entangled particles need to be dropped off and spun up in order to get the zealot.

12/31/2012 06:54 AMPosted by VIPER
Kelthar you should be on the show.
^^

Ok, if i missed anything, let me know, if you have other questions, post them and i'll get back to you.
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If Protoss can warp units in, why can't they warp units out?
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