StarCraft® II

Why terran macro is the hardest

Posts: 14


Well, terran has to rally his scv back to the mineral line when its building a production unit as otherwise terran would have an idle scv when the production building is finished. And I see lot of zerg players making fun of how easy it is to call mules down. Yes its easy but if we call down mules, we can't scan you. And so we really can't get any scouting information from you if we choose to call down a mule. Where as zerg has the early overlord scouting and creep spread scouting as well as fast lings to scout.

Zerg just needs to develop a timing pattern which is constant. Terran has to do a difficult juggling act.

And don't even get me started on protoss...their race is hilariously easy.

So all in all I would like to say Terran is the hardest race to macro. If you are a terran be proud of it.


Wow. So first of all, why not just use shift click to rally back to the mineral line after builing in one step? Second, a hellion is a way better scout then a fast ling. Lastly, the fact that you are argueing with a masters player and think your right shows your arrogance and stubbornness. We're bronze for a reason. We suck. Honestly, how can you possibly say protoss is easy without playing a single game of it?

I assume you heard that protoss is easy on the forums and automatically assume it to be true because it makes your main race look better. It almost pains me to know that !@#$heads like you exist. I wont be back to this thread because I want to forget about it, dont bother replying.


First of all I was giving the counter argument to zerg players who whine about their macro being harder because of larva injects, replacing workers after constructing a building, etc. Zerg doesn't have to use a shift click to rally their workers back to their mineral line.

Second, the helion is only really good in the opening and its usefulness decreases dramatically through middlegame and endgame because marines become more valuable to terran, where as the zergling remains valuable throughout the game as they can be massed easily and cheaply.

Third, it doesn't matter if I was arguing with a master, even if he was a grandmaster, that doesn't make him right when all his only argument was "your thread is terrible and I am not going to tell you why because your thread is terrible" Ranking doesn't matter as everyone knows that doesn't accurately reflect your game skills, its the hidden MMR.

Fourth, I don't know why you use the word "we are bronze". I am not bronze. You are. And I have played protoss before and I don't need to read the forums to know protoss is easy, just analyze the statistics and protoss mechanics and you'll see APM for protoss players around the world have a lower average then the other two races.

Fifth, I am going to reply back to you even though you say not to because I am glad I won't ever have to see your reply back to this post.
Edited by jonc on 12/18/2012 12:03 PM PST
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Posts: 710
actually, terran has the most actions in their macro cycle they have to return back to base camera for

i have to add raxes, lift themm to fit addons, etc. as zerg i can inject from the minimap, as protoss i can queue 6 gates to be made by the same probe and then go micro somewhere else

Terran macro actions that require moving camera: adding depots, adding production, dropping mules

Protoss macro actions that require moving camera: adding pylons, adding production, chronoboost, warping in units

Zerg macro actions that require moving camera: injects (I think only a small # of Zergs do minimap injection), adding production (a lot fewer times than Terran/Protoss, since you just need 1 structure), and creep spread.

So, we have 3 for Terran, 4 for Protoss, and 2-3 for Zerg. However, production is much easier for Zerg while creep spread (in particular, optimal creep spread) is much more difficult. Terran is the only race that can queue up their production (which, while not 100% optimal, does help everyone in real game situations), whereas Zerg cannot queue up injects and Protoss cannot queue up warp-ins. I'd say the races are about even in this regard.

12/16/2012 11:22 AMPosted by sAdgiRLtt
when i buy new units, i dont select them, hit shift + 1 and then go on microing my happy way. i can't prebind the eggs my units come out of, or hotkey my units as they are warping in. a large part of terran macro is switching back and forth between your main and your army to add in new units as the pop out

This is usually true, although in some cases you can just rally all your production to the front for the attack. I don't see this as a big deal (especially given how Protoss need to move their camera to warp in, and also have this same issue with units created from robo or stargate).

12/16/2012 11:22 AMPosted by sAdgiRLtt
when i get supply blocked, i dont have to get to wait 25 seconds like zerg or protoss, as terran, i must wait 30 seconds for my depots to finish. every time i build a depot, i need to remember to rally it back or my worker will be idle. If i see a mule that is near it's expiration returning to mine, i must click it and stop it from mining or ill lose out on a few minerals in the long run

You are forgetting that Terran also has supply call-down, making supply blocks for Terran arguably the most forgiving of any of the races. While supply call-downs are not optimal, they are way preferable to 25 second supply blocks.

Also, you can't be serious about making sure the mule doesn't waste the 1 trip (30 minerals). I know pros will do this, but as a mid-masters Terran I have never done this, and never will. It's simply not worth spending my apm on, and does not hold me back at all.

12/16/2012 11:22 AMPosted by sAdgiRLtt
terran macro is considered the most difficult for a reason, it's a lot less forgiving than massive larvae and gateway stacks. In between all of the solid macro required to play terran (it is and always will be a mechanics race, even since brood war) you have to micro your heart out.

I don't think there is any form of consensus whatsoever that Terran macro is the most difficult. As a mid-masters player who can play all 3 races at mid-master level, I personally find Protoss macro the most difficult just b/c of warp-ins. There is definitely more consensus that Terran micro is the most apm-intensive and difficult, however.
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Posts: 1,059
I don't know about difficulty, but Zerg definitely has more "busy-work" than Terran. I feel like I spend all of my time managing injects and spreading creep as zerg.
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Posts: 25
12/15/2012 01:32 PMPosted by jonc
Dude terran macro isn't really any harder than protoss or zerg, i will admit that that terran building structures become inferior when you hit the lategame and trade armies, but that is why terran can abuse mules and get a bigger army so there armies can snowball really well if they take 1 battle.


Why you think mules give us an a huge advantage? Its for economical purposes to CATCH UP with the protoss ability to chrono boost faster workers and to match zergs ability to like train multiple drones at once.

Chrono boost, larva and mules are all balanced in their economical purposes. All 3 races are balanced overall.

What I am saying is that terran is the hardest to macro compared to the other races.


Because by the 12 minute mark you should have built all the SCVs you're going to need (minus losing some to harass) so any MULEs after that is bonus income that the other races do not have access to.
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Posts: 25
First of all I was giving the counter argument to zerg players who whine about their macro being harder because of larva injects, replacing workers after constructing a building, etc. Zerg doesn't have to use a shift click to rally their workers back to their mineral line.

Second, the helion is only really good in the opening and its usefulness decreases dramatically through middlegame and endgame because marines become more valuable to terran, where as the zergling remains valuable throughout the game as they can be massed easily and cheaply.

Third, it doesn't matter if I was arguing with a master, even if he was a grandmaster, that doesn't make him right when all his only argument was "your thread is terrible and I am not going to tell you why because your thread is terrible" Ranking doesn't matter as everyone knows that doesn't accurately reflect your game skills, its the hidden MMR.

Fourth, I don't know why you use the word "we are bronze". I am not bronze. You are. And I have played protoss before and I don't need to read the forums to know protoss is easy, just analyze the statistics and protoss mechanics and you'll see APM for protoss players around the world have a lower average then the other two races.

Fifth, I am going to reply back to you even though you say not to because I am glad I won't ever have to see your reply back to this post.


Oh for the love of god.

Personally I think you're out of line for "harder" macro. As for Terran and Zerg I find that Zerg is a bit harder in the first 10 minutes, but Terran gets a little more complicated after the third CC goes down. There's some timings that I don't have quite down, but I can see that if you can get it, it would be much easier to shoot up the ranks. My best matchup is TvZ because Zerg in the gold division are horrible. They know how to take bases, but they miss so many injects and don't drone properly. TvT is my hardest because I find tank wars incredibly tedious.

The Zergling remains valuable? Oh yeah I forgot about that Zergling/Infestor/Broodlord combo that everyone complains about. Its dead supply toward the end. At least marines shoot up in the air.

Ranking does matter. There's not a single game that I lose that I couldn't have played better. I find that my macro is usually better than my opponent, but not knowing how to properly react to situations kills me. The difference is I'll get better at reacting properly, but I feel sorry for the players that are stuck in gold after 2000+ games.

Big deal. Who cares that their APM is lower. Terran players on average have lower APM than Zerg but that's just because how APM is tracked. Useful clicks are the only thing that matter, and that's harder to figure out from a pure APM standpoint. We all have APM limitations and its more important to know how to use your APM than to have more APM most the time. Clearly you don't know the Protoss race that well. Otherwise you wouldn't claim its so much easier than Terran. They're stuck with the same issues as Terran with building and timing. Protoss may have more effective cheese than the other two races, but that's about it.
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Posts: 244
I'm a high diamond zerg, and a platinum terran.

I don't think either races production is more "difficult." I of course find zerg production more intuitive, because I play it more. Yet there's still plenty of the "small things" that zerg has to do that terran doesn't.

One good example is looking back at your base during fights. As terran, I rarely have to do it; I'm losing supply, so I don't need to build supply depots. I can just press "3-ffffffffffffff" (That's barracks -> marines), and find a whole new army at my rally point. Zerg has to move his camera around to inject, which can lead to getting behind positionally.

TLDR; Different races are different
Edited by Wobulator on 12/20/2012 11:34 AM PST
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Posts: 244
12/18/2012 12:00 PMPosted by jonc
Third, it doesn't matter if I was arguing with a master, even if he was a grandmaster, that doesn't make him right when all his only argument was "your thread is terrible and I am not going to tell you why because your thread is terrible" Ranking doesn't matter as everyone knows that doesn't accurately reflect your game skills, its the hidden MMR.


No. He's right, you're wrong. A masters player is many, many times better than you, and could probably beat you with one hand. If his hidden MMR was really in the silver league range, he wouldn't be masters.
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Posts: 33
Lol.
Jonc, this is a pretty good troll I have to admit. Well played sir.
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Posts: 605


And don't even get me started on protoss...their race is hilariously easy.



You talk about how easy it is for Z to hit injects but yet you can't even remember to make workers constantly, if you could you wouldn't be in gold but wait you probably think balance is what's holding you back?

So what gives you the right to talk about the difficulty of other races when you barely have grasp on the mechanics of your main race?
Edited by RainingMEN on 1/27/2013 9:57 PM PST
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Posts: 9
Coming from a Terran that plays maybe 5-10 1v1's in a season (and still somehow in platinum) I'd have to disagree entirely. People find different things more difficult. I have no trouble with macro Terran. In fact I find it's the most comfortable, don't even have to think about macro while I micro my bio-ball. Whenever I random Protoss I cry a bit inside because I can't remember to chrono upgrades or that much needed Colossus to save my life. =(
Edited by JonKeD on 1/27/2013 10:58 PM PST
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Posts: 10,506
Terran macro is not harder than zerg macro; but that is for a very good reason.

Terran requires you to look at and baby your army more than if you play zerg.

Stop being so...ill-informed please.
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Posts: 920
The hardest thing about Terran macro that the other races dont have to deal with is queing up units and making sure to keep that up during battle. Otherwise you wont be able to reinforce or defend a counter attack or reproduce your army fast enough.

Zerg can always just que up all his saved larvae and Toss have warp gates to stall until they get their robo units out.

The way you build your production also matters a little bit more for Terrans as your units can freely move out of their production structure and be easily able to move them within the base.
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Do people even read time stamps on posts?!
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01/28/2013 02:29 AMPosted by Who
The hardest thing about Terran macro that the other races dont have to deal with is queing up units and making sure to keep that up during battle.


If you think about it, the other races do that too.

Zerg: you better believe you have to inject even during battle

Protoss: you have to que just like terran for robo and stargate units, but for warpgates you have to actually PHYSICALLY look at where you are placing them

If you think about it, objectively, you will get a better sense of how each of the races work.
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Posts: 920
The hardest thing about Terran macro that the other races dont have to deal with is queing up units and making sure to keep that up during battle.


If you think about it, the other races do that too.

Zerg: you better believe you have to inject even during battle

Protoss: you have to que just like terran for robo and stargate units, but for warpgates you have to actually PHYSICALLY look at where you are placing them

If you think about it, objectively, you will get a better sense of how each of the races work.


No it is not the same. Different races are different.

Zerg has stored larva and as the game progress the more hatcheries they have the more effective production becomes. Toss will have tons of gate way and warp gate is a lot more forgiving with chronoboost.

You miss one or two que on your rax then you wont have enough to follow up after a trade or defend a counter attack. With both warp gate and Larva you can have units on demand to defend when you need to.

Yes you have to look for a brief, and key word here brief, second to warp in units just like zergs have to look at their hatcheries for injects and Terrans have to look at their rally points .
The only form of advantage Terrans will have is not being able to look back home for production .
Edited by Who on 1/28/2013 6:42 PM PST
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01/28/2013 06:38 PMPosted by Who
Zerg has stored larva and as the game progress the more hatcheries they have the more effective production becomes.


Stored larvae is only as effective as how good you are with your injects, besides stockpiling larvae is lategame.

01/28/2013 06:38 PMPosted by Who
Toss will have tons of gate way and warp gate is a lot more forgiving with chronoboost.


With both warping in AND chronoboosting, you are required to look at your base and where you are warping in (no way to get around that) and again, that is late game.

Some how you forget to mention sacking scvs and relying on more mules for a larger army? It is the terran version of what you labelled above.

01/28/2013 06:38 PMPosted by Who
You miss one or two que on your rax then you wont have enough to follow up after a trade or defend a counter attack


If you miss one or two que on your robo/stargate units and forget to warp in, you have the same kind of deficit (identical if you look at robo and stargate)

If you miss one or two injects you are again in a place where you will NEVER make up those lost units unless you make MORE production (just like terran, just like protoss)

01/28/2013 06:38 PMPosted by Who
Yes you have to look for a brief, and key word here brief, second to warp in units just like zergs have to look at their hatcheries for injects and Terrans have to look at their rally points .


If you get to say "brief second" for warping in units or injecting larvae, I will point out that those are NOWHERE comparable to setting rally points (which don't get changed every 40 seconds, you don't set your rally points anew every time you finish a cycle of units).

01/28/2013 06:38 PMPosted by Who
The only form of advantage Terrans will have is not being able to look back home for production .


It kinda happened on the flipside here, but here is what I am trying to say, you can not think of it as an "advantage", because it stops you from analyzing the entire race as a whole and how they are actually quite balanced when you take everything into account.

With personal experience I find myself focusing on COMPLETELY different things when I play different races; with terran I micro my army, with zerg I focus on macro, with protoss I do a bit of both.

01/28/2013 06:38 PMPosted by Who
No it is not the same. Different races are different.


I never said they were the same, do not put words in my mouth.

01/28/2013 02:29 AMPosted by Who
The hardest thing about Terran macro that the other races dont have to deal with is queing up units and making sure to keep that up during battle


I corrected you here because every race has something to do while there is a battle going on, ALL OF THEM, many of the things however are not connected directly to the engagement.

As zerg, you of course have to inject larvae and creep spread which both require you to look at your base

As protoss you have to make pylons, look at where you are warping in units, and have to chrono boost

As terran you have to lay supply depots AND land mules (if you want to play terran right, it is just as unforgiving as injects).

Zerg macro is important enough and difficult enough that it is more important to focus on that then keeping your army alive; the opposite applies to when you play terran, where macro is quite simple and straight forward but is evened out with all your left over APM being solely devoted to microing your units and getting your moneys worth out of them.

All across the board you have to que units, whether its colossi, marines, zerglings or workers is irrelevant, that aspect of unit production is the same (literally, like I hotkey my rax to 6 and hold DDDD and then AAAAAAAAAAAA, when I play zerg its 6 for my hatches and RRRRRRRRR then ZZZZZZZZ).

I really do believe that you have a misguided view on how the other races function and it all stems from your earlier statement:

01/28/2013 02:29 AMPosted by Who
the other races dont have to deal with is queing up units and making sure to keep that up during battle.


Queing is the same across the board. Every race has to keep up unit production during battle, all of them.
Edited by fingrknitter on 1/28/2013 8:53 PM PST
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Posts: 74
Hey OP you be toss and I will be terran and I will post the replay for all to see. It shouldn't matter that I am a higher league than you since your hidden MMR is all that matters, according to you at least. CommonTater 910. Hit me up around 8:00 tomorrow. By the way, a stipulation will be added. if you lose you can't post anymore of your drabble. If you win you must be the smartest and greatest starcraft 2 player ever. Anyway, don't forget to add me and we can play tomorrow at 8:00 pm eastern time.
Cheers.
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Posts: 165
does anyone even lift?
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Posts: 920
Zerg has stored larva and as the game progress the more hatcheries they have the more effective production becomes.


Stored larvae is only as effective as how good you are with your injects, besides stockpiling larvae is lategame.
.


Apparently we are getting into redundancy as you just agreed to most of what I said at your attempts to try seem none bias .

Injects stop at 19 larvae per hatchery which is what 5 injects each? You just have to worry about injects after you remax which again is another 5. The funny thing you completely overlook is you can have plenty of macro hatcheries where you will have so much larvae that you can afford to miss injects.
Early game this doesnt matter because Barracks or factory wont be in high numbers until the 3rd base of Terran which will still be small production compared to 3-4 base zerg with 2 macro hatch.

Toss will be working off of at the most 2 robos because most would not really over commit on their colossus or immortal production . You just have to look for 2 second, the same time I need to drop a mule, to chrono out units out a robo and stargate or warpin . Your gate way dont cost gas, easy to place since you dont have to account for addons and easier to get much more than a Terran have production facilities. You can warp in a large amount of supply at any given time and chrono boost for a second quick warp in. That is far better than queing units. Why? Ghost vs HT production you can warp in 5-6 HT at a time before I make my first 4 ghost and guess what you can warp in another 4-6 HT just as my first 4 ghosts finish.
Just like Zerg in late game you will have so much warpgates you will be warping in like close to 50 or over supply at a time and just having to wait for robo units which is no big deal.

Bio and mech constantly have to be qued up in order to compete. As we lose one set of units we better have another set qued . I miss one que late game that is probably 30 supply that could have reinforce. I miss another thats another 30.

Production for both Toss and Zerg are better, not QQing here just telling you dont try play non partial here when you really are being bias.

TL:dr- No race are really harder to macro, however some races have advantages in production over others because that is the mechanic they are design around .
Edited by Who on 1/28/2013 10:20 PM PST
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Posts: 10,506
Injects stop at 19 larvae per hatchery which is what 5 injects each? You just have to worry about injects after you remax which again is another 5. The funny thing you completely overlook is you can have plenty of macro hatcheries where you will have so much larvae that you can afford to miss injects.
Early game this doesnt matter because Barracks or factory wont be in high numbers until the 3rd base of Terran which will still be small production compared to 3-4 base zerg with 2 macro hatch.


What? Who are you playing? 3 base terran? 3-4 base zerg with 2 macro hatches?

You should never be stockpiling larvae until after 16 minutes, once you hit 12 minutes you should be around your final number of drones (stop at 70) and you should be teching to broodlords. Larvae should not be stagnant until after broodlords, if you don't need army you make DRONES. Up until 16 minutes is basically when all the races can not afford to make mistakes because it is that time that the 3 base all ins and fast tech pushes are available. This idea that you can "afford to miss injects" is where you fail to comprehend how zerg works.

Toss will be working off of at the most 2 robos because most would not really over commit on their colossus or immortal production . You just have to look for 2 second, the same time I need to drop a mule, to chrono out units out a robo and stargate or warpin . Your gate way dont cost gas, easy to place since you dont have to account for addons and easier to get much more than a Terran have production facilities. You can warp in a large amount of supply at any given time and chrono boost for a second quick warp in. That is far better than queing units. Why? Ghost vs HT production you can warp in 5-6 HT at a time before I make my first 4 ghost and guess what you can warp in another 4-6 HT just as my first 4 ghosts finish.
Just like Zerg in late game you will have so much warpgates you will be warping in like close to 50 or over supply at a time and just having to wait for robo units which is no big deal.


Gateway units and HT/DT warp ins are balanced around gateway units sucking and only increasing the lifetime of protosses damage dealing colossus and High Templar. If you are letting someone get 3750 minerals worth of gateways to warp in 2500 minerals of zealots (for example, cheapest gateway unit) I don't think it is unreasonable to think you have a sufficient barracks number (seeing as MULE's are part of funding infrastructure). Putting add ons on buildings by the way is just as difficult as making a queen or transforming a gateway into a warp gate.

Bio and mech constantly have to be qued up in order to compete. As we lose one set of units we better have another set qued . I miss one que late game that is probably 30 supply that could have reinforce. I miss another thats another 30.


It is just as bad to miss an inject or miss a production cycle as protoss or zerg lategame. "As we lose one set of units we better have another set qued" that applies to ALL races, select your production building on a hotkey, mash unit hotkey and your done it is the SAME execution for all races.

01/28/2013 09:57 PMPosted by Who
Production for both Toss and Zerg are better, not QQing here just telling you dont try play non partial here when you really are being bias.


Oh ya sooo biased where did you get that? From here?

01/28/2013 08:51 PMPosted by fingrknitter
It kinda happened on the flipside here, but here is what I am trying to say, you can not think of it as an "advantage", because it stops you from analyzing the entire race as a whole and how they are actually quite balanced when you take everything into account.


Hmmm no that can't be it...and I play all the races...where could this be? Oh maybe this?

The hardest thing about Terran macro that the other races dont have to deal with is queing up units and making sure to keep that up during battle. Otherwise you wont be able to reinforce or defend a counter attack or reproduce your army fast enough.

Zerg can always just que up all his saved larvae and Toss have warp gates to stall until they get their robo units out.

The way you build your production also matters a little bit more for Terrans as your units can freely move out of their production structure and be easily able to move them within the base.


Nope that was your biased post, sorry :S

01/28/2013 09:57 PMPosted by Who
TL:dr- No race are really harder to macro, however some races have advantages in production over others because that is the mechanic they are design around .


Read your first post in this thread above and maybe you can see how hypocritical you are. This is in no way the same as "Zerg can JUST stockpile larvae".
Edited by fingrknitter on 1/29/2013 12:09 AM PST
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