StarCraft® II

Why terran macro is the hardest


Actually, I believe he corrected you on the cost of the research, since you didn't seem to know what it was.


I was not speaking about the research what I said was turn a gate way into the warp gate. You know switching after the research is over. Similar to the small min cost to combine HT or DT for an archon.

Comparing a research to having to spend mins on every production is different which is why I didnt make the comparison. I wanted you to tell me what is the trade off for changing 1 gateway into a warpgate after you have the tech.


Well then right there I misunderstood your statement then, because writing "mins" to me is "minerals".

That is true, I wont deny them having to be gas heavy however being mineral heavy isnt really good either. If you get denied a base which is easy to do if you a facing a zerg for example. Then you can see how hard it hits you. While Toss do have builds that utilize their gas dumps like the Immortal sentry or Chargelot Archon. I wish we had a gas dump beside the raven that can be utilize in a build such as those.
Which is one of the pros of Terran in TvP the mobility of Bio. Though I would say in a late game army engagement it usually favors their deathball as we need good position to engage.


Through out the game however, gas is the limiting factor in 90% of protoss armies, so it doesn't matter if you have 10 or 20 warp gates, you only get to make as many units as your resources allow.

You keep referring to larvae stock piles, warp gates; forms of INITIAL pay off but in the long run can only be sustained by the output of your economy, just like the terran "trickle charge".

Bio isn't supposed to go toe to toe with untouched protoss death balls, I have played enough TvP's too feel it. A high gas count to me when I play terran, is a motivator to get more mining bases, get more upgrades.

The entire time I have been trying to get you not to nitpick about the nuances that get every race from A to B. There is a push and shove to every part of this game, so statements like "Protoss get to warp in units" go hand in hand with the other side "Barracks units get stim".
Edited by fingrknitter on 1/29/2013 1:45 PM PST
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Everytime I build a reactor I get a second barracks for my very very fragile marine,


Marine is by far the best unit in the game. So yes, for 50/25 (BTW its gonna work throough out the game) you are getting second barrack for marines.

For 50/50 I am getting 33% more gateways. See the difference?

You dont seem to understand the difference here. You can warp in any units from any warpgate. I can only build my special units out of my tech lab barracks. You drop a dark shrine you can make x amount of Dt for x amount warp gate you have on the field . If I have 6 rax 2 reactored and 2 tech labs I can only make 3 rauders at a time if I want more rauders I need to invest in more production and more tech labs. See the difference?


You can produce multiple units from the baracks. If I want more production, I'll buid more gateways, if you want more production, you'll build more baracks. And then an add-on if you want marauders or whatever, which BTW counter every single gateway units up to an archon. Idea is the same, more building - more units. Price and everything else is balanced around how good the unit is. Otherwise, the principle is the same.

You can try all you want but still wont make your asinine logic right.

You can produce HT faster than us that is a fact.


Holy F***k. Are you brain dead????

I just convincingly showed you that in the same amount of time you can produce the same amount of units, assuming we have same amount of building structures. How can you possibly keep saying otherwise???

Protoss just produces them in waves, and terran has to constantly produce them to keep up. Protoss way is obviously more micro-intensive.

Now lets get to an actual scenario on 3 bases which is when you can see Ghost production fully swing. Terran will have at least 10 racks now not every one of those racks will have tech labs infact I can guarantee you probably only 4 will have tech labs. So in 5 minutes you will see around 30 ghosts on the field.


???????????????????????????????????????

Fine, then I have 10 gates as well, but not every gate will produce HTs, so I can only produce 20 HTs. WTF is these, kindergarden?

WTF are you even talking about?? I just showed you with freaking math, that by having the same amount of building, you'll be able to outproduce me in units. If you want more ghosts - get more baracks with tech labs.. Want more marines: get more reactors. VERY EASY.

There is absolutely no excuse for you to fall behind in production. Your lack of skill the only reason you cannot get as many ghosts as you possibly want. You understanding of the game is next to zero.
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Waiting for warp gate cd is the trade off of having to wait 5 sec for unit warp.


??????????????????

That's just how production works. Overall it is balanced, because you keep producing units constantly and I do it in burst. So overall, it takes us more or less the same amount of time to get the same amount of units.

Warp gate doesn't have any trade-offs except for the price. You invest 50/50 to get ability to warp in units anywhere within power and you can make units 7seconds faster compared to usual production.

The same way there are no trade-offs to concussive shells...it is just there as an upgrade.
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Comparing a research to having to spend mins on every production is different which is why I didnt make the comparison. I wanted you to tell me what is the trade off for changing 1 gateway into a warpgate after you have the tech.


There is no trade-off...It is an upgrade. What's the trade off of getting concussive shells?
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You two need to both stop bickering back and forth. Protoss has the potential to re-max faster than terran because protoss units tend to eat up more supply and protoss banks more cash. Similar to Zerg banking larvae for army re-max. Terran does not enjoy that luxury and tend to slowly reinforce. This is still fine since you have the only sustainable healing mechanism in the game (auto-repair and medivac). This just means its typically not favorable for terran to trade army unless a substantial amount of damage is inflicted.
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Guys: Different Races are different.

Yes, Protoss does reinforce faster per gateway, but stalkers and zealots aren't as good as marines and marauders.
Yes, Terran does reinforce more slowly but Marines are so much better than Zealots, Stalkers, Lings, banelings, and roaches that it balances out.

Does Protoss take more APM to use effectively? no. It's actually pretty comparable when you consider that Terran needs a lot of APM to engage effectively, but protoss must look away (at least a little) to warp in new units and to chrono dem gates.

Can protoss make their macro easier through effective camera hotkey use? absolutely.
Can terran hit the barracks hotkey and hold down A for 1 second while they are kiting? yes.

Is it tricky to balance this activity? yes it is, for all races.
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I was not speaking about the research what I said was turn a gate way into the warp gate. You know switching after the research is over. Similar to the small min cost to combine HT or DT for an archon.

Comparing a research to having to spend mins on every production is different which is why I didnt make the comparison. I wanted you to tell me what is the trade off for changing 1 gateway into a warpgate after you have the tech.


Well then right there I misunderstood your statement then, because writing "mins" to me is "minerals".

That is true, I wont deny them having to be gas heavy however being mineral heavy isnt really good either. If you get denied a base which is easy to do if you a facing a zerg for example. Then you can see how hard it hits you. While Toss do have builds that utilize their gas dumps like the Immortal sentry or Chargelot Archon. I wish we had a gas dump beside the raven that can be utilize in a build such as those.
Which is one of the pros of Terran in TvP the mobility of Bio. Though I would say in a late game army engagement it usually favors their deathball as we need good position to engage.


Through out the game however, gas is the limiting factor in 90% of protoss armies, so it doesn't matter if you have 10 or 20 warp gates, you only get to make as many units as your resources allow.

You keep referring to larvae stock piles, warp gates; forms of INITIAL pay off but in the long run can only be sustained by the output of your economy, just like the terran "trickle charge".

Bio isn't supposed to go toe to toe with untouched protoss death balls, I have played enough TvP's too feel it. A high gas count to me when I play terran, is a motivator to get more mining bases, get more upgrades.

The entire time I have been trying to get you not to nitpick about the nuances that get every race from A to B. There is a push and shove to every part of this game, so statements like "Protoss get to warp in units" go hand in hand with the other side "Barracks units get stim".




Higher gas counts is nice if you plan on tech switching however lets us be real after your 4th base how hard is it to get that 5th base to do so and will your opponent allow you to do it. Now aside from the immortal-sentry all in, your tech path already supports Chargelot Archon switch with the upgrades. That is why I used the example.

Of course there are trade offs never said there was not any. What I am saying it is balance but certain things isnt equal across the board.
Bio is a lot more mobile than a Toss deathball. A toss deathball is a lot more tougher than a bio ball. One advantage over another on both ends. However it is balance .
Edited by Who on 1/29/2013 2:18 PM PST
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01/29/2013 02:15 PMPosted by Who
A toss deathball is a lot more tougher than a bio ball.


This is the impression I got of ALL your other posts other than this one, missing that other half, especially the first few; your first post explained that terran is the only race that has to que up units during a fight.

01/29/2013 02:15 PMPosted by Who
Bio is a lot more mobile than a Toss deathball.


I was waiting for this kind of objectivity the WHOLE TIME, and because I didn't feel it was there I tried to supply it for you. You think I am biased when I am only trying to add to what you are correctly inferring; I am closer to the devils advocate than biased I assure you.

Actually warp ins would go hand in hand with Reactors since Marines is the core dps unit of bio.


It isn't as simple as that ;) Why do protoss units get to be warped in? Removing the defenders advantage? Because they are weaker. Why does bio get produced so inconveniently and supply inefficiently? Because they get stim, increasing their effectiveness.

You can go through the WHOLE GAME and find things like upgrade times, hitboxes, smarfire, projectiles and everything that is taken into consideration; and people constantly pick ONE of them and spew about how their race doesn't have that and how therefor, one race is harder/whatever.
Edited by fingrknitter on 1/29/2013 2:34 PM PST
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I disagee

For one, depots can raise and lower, extremely powerfu defensive mechanism that overlords don't have. Mass orbital, click E 20 times and you have an entire expansion fo minerals mined out. Tabbing through buildings isn't that hard. As a zerg you have to tab through queens, that is basically equivilent to tabbing through buildings. Ling scout dies so fast that you can't see anything real important. Early overlord can be sniped by floating building.

............
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tab through queens? why? for injects just hotkey all queens to one key then remap backspace to tab and tab to spacebar.... now hit your hotkey, hold down shift and tap tab, left click... tab left click tab left click... unitl you are through your hatcheries it takes like 1 second if that
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fyi zerg is way easier in the lower leagues to play than terran.... thats the bottom line, in the higher leagues im sure it is closed to balanced (maybe?). but in omfg noob l2p gold league its sooooooo much easier... a move when terran isnt seiged.... lmfao they rage quit, cant blame em though all i did was a move and hit some injects
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Its hard to say that any race is harder to macro than the other. Yea terran has a lot of structures to manage, but they should all be on 1-3 hotkeys.. I use 3 just becuase i'm used to it. its a preference.

If you want to argue that zerg only needs to deal with 1 interval while terran needs to deal with multiple, think of how rarely you are producing out of more than 2 production facilities and your command centers. Zerg deals with creep spread and injects without being able to do either on 1 hotkey.


By 7 minutes a terran should have 2 cc (if you didnt go for a fast third), factory, star port, 2 barracks and one in production. when you take your third you double your production. So a terran only macro'ing 2 structures and 2 CC's is a ridiculous statement.

All races have ups and down about their macro. Chronos boost is tricky to keep on point when u get to mid game and late game. Zerg has to make an amount of drones based on what timing attack they think their opponent is doing. And Larva injects on 3+ base plus good creep spread is something you have to master.

The only thing i agree on with the OP is that mules get hated on too much. 1 mule = 3-4 scv's. so 2 mules at a time equals 6-8 drones, and zerg can make that at any point in the game when at least on 2 bases. And even though that takes away larva. Typically terran only use mules when they are "macro'ing up", and zerg should be droning then anyway. When terran plans to move out against zerg they save CC energy for scans to clear up creep.

Terran macro really comes down to never missing an scv cycle and having the appropiate amount of production structures. Just like all 3 races it is an aqcuired skill.

GG al
Edited by Shwesh on 5/2/2013 11:47 AM PDT
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You two need to both stop bickering back and forth. Protoss has the potential to re-max faster than terran because protoss units tend to eat up more supply and protoss banks more cash. Similar to Zerg banking larvae for army re-max. Terran does not enjoy that luxury and tend to slowly reinforce. This is still fine since you have the only sustainable healing mechanism in the game (auto-repair and medivac). This just means its typically not favorable for terran to trade army unless a substantial amount of damage is inflicted.


This is post sums it all up!
P.S.- Terran can only trade armies if they're way ahead econ-wise or if its late game and T is sitting on 12+ barracks. Typically trading is bad for a terran though, but thats why we have medivacs (load up and boost outta there). Theres a timing in TvZ where u get 2 medivacs and you can push out and clear some creep before mutas come in. Take advantage of that every time you can
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lol

Silver thinks he knows what race has hard macro. You can't macro any of the races, that's why you're in silver.
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