StarCraft® II

PvZ What could I Have done better

Posts: 954
http://drop.sc/294653

I haven't played macro pvz in so long and I had no clue what I was doing. Can anyone give suggestions? I know I forgot templar tech and upgrades lol.
Edited by AMadWalrus on 1/13/2013 6:51 PM PST
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Posts: 751
With Zergs ability to apply pressure at any point in the game, scout for nothing, keep constant map control, macro faster, make more cost efficient units, tech switch instantly, and Protoss only being able to scout after already choosing their tech path your options are few. Proxy gate, immortal sentry all in, or just quit at the beginning are your only real options in this match up.
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Posts: 593
Upgrades are your best friend in PvZ next to Immortals and Colossus. You also need to have good scouting the entire game. If you know what you're Zerg opponent is doing, then having the right composition of units will utterly devastate them, even if they go for Mutalisks. I will say that you need to have an open mind against playing macro Zerg because in doing so you'll be more confident in trying the tech paths needed to win. If it calls for it, do not be afraid to go Stargate at some point.

I will say that Roaches are probably PvZ's biggest problem. They're cheap, massable, kick the snot out of Zealots, easily replaceable, hardy, can regenerate very fast while burrowed, move while burrowed, and basically require Protoss to go tech-heavy for them alone. Immortals are great counters, but they cost a lot and take a while to produce, not to mention clog-up the Robotics Facility that you could use for Colossus. Even if you play that all right, the tech-switch to mass Mutalisk will ruin the game for you. As soon as that last wave of mass roach dies, your opponent may already have 10-15 Mutalisks ready to devastate your Immortals, while also having enough Spine Crawlers to deter a fast attack on your opponent's base. If you do kill off the mass of Mutalisks, which require a lot of Stalkers or Phoenix, then your opponent can tech switch to Zergling/Roach which can ruin your Stalkers and bypass your Phoenix no matter what. At that point it's almost always GG.

Point being, you need to harass the hell out of the Zerg, force them to spend money they don't want to spend on defense or tech, try your best at outright killing expansions, use Forcefields like crazy, be smart with your engagement locations, and make sure to stay at least tied economically the entire game.
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01/14/2013 06:31 AMPosted by WRDlucida
Proxy gate, immortal sentry all in, or just quit at the beginning are your only real options in this match up.
Terrible advice.

Macro builds like the CreatorPrime no colossus build, the 2 base MS expand build in WOL, Double stargate play in HOTS, there are enough options for the OP to consider, and even if the Zerg scouts the tech, it makes no difference because these builds are built around solid principles and are not centered around gimmicks where scouting and reacting will shut the build down. These macro builds are also extremely flexible, so your assessment on PvZ being hyper Zerg-favored is EXTREMELY flawed.
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01/14/2013 09:55 AMPosted by Zamara
Proxy gate, immortal sentry all in, or just quit at the beginning are your only real options in this match up.
Terrible advice.

Macro builds like the CreatorPrime no colossus build, the 2 base MS expand build in WOL, Double stargate play in HOTS, there are enough options for the OP to consider, and even if the Zerg scouts the tech, it makes no difference because these builds are built around solid principles and are not centered around gimmicks where scouting and reacting will shut the build down. These macro builds are also extremely flexible, so your assessment on PvZ being hyper Zerg-favored is EXTREMELY flawed.


First off, this is the WoL forums so any point you made about HotS is moot. Second, you clearly are playing and watching a different game . . .checks match history . . . ya, definitely playing something else.

When you see a pro SCII player go macro against a Zerg then it's not because that's their best bet for winning. It's just for practice because, when tourney time roles around even MC immortal sentry all ins 2 out of 3.
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01/14/2013 11:36 AMPosted by WRDlucida
When you see a pro SCII player go macro against a Zerg then it's not because that's their best bet for winning. It's just for practice because, when tourney time roles around even MC immortal sentry all ins 2 out of 3.

You see 3-base all-ins almost as often as 2-base all-ins in tournaments. Sidewinder's MS expand build is viable into late game into high Master's based on accounts from this forum, and 2-3 base all-ins around blink stalkers, immortals, warp prims, zealot/archon, etc. are viable at the pro level. Even gold old CSS is still quite viable through about 20 minutes as long as you pressure Zerg enough to keep their brood lord numbers from getting large. It is true that you can't afford to let Zerg assemble a late-game deathball on an even economy.
I'm not talking from personal experience so much (because I suck at SC2) but from watching GMs and pros stream.
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Posts: 509
Am I the only one who watched AMadWalrus' Replay?
Congratulations, AMadWalrus! You won.

Your Zerg opponent did very little scouting, just 6 Zerglings and 1 Overlord. You had a Probe and a pair of Observers showing what Tech your opponent had, and followed the Zerg's pushes into your area.
Your opponent got some 6 bases. You got 4.
Your opponent got zero Upgrades. You got +3/2.
You did not attack until about 19 minutes in, when you had 11 Warpgates, 1 Robotics Facility, 1 Stargate., and a Mothership.
You got early Sentries, which are great for Choke Control.
You got a few Immortals, which are great against Roaches.
The Colossi were your only AoE, and the Mothership's Cloaking Field was your primary defense for those Colossi.
You escaped a flood of Infested Terrans and let them expire, which was wise because the Infestors ran out of energy.
Your Upgraded Blink Stalkers did quite well against all of the Broodlords used against you.

The first Hatchery you popped was not used and had no Drones. You could have hit it earlier, and also the one with just a pair of Queens at the bottom of the map. I am surprised you did not attack earlier. I am surprised you did not take a Probe to drop a Pylon with your advancing deathball, to reinforce it with Warp-ins. (Some players drop a Pylon in front of their deathball, sometimes at a crossroads, to lure enemy units into a cluster, or for Map Control.) I am surprised you let so many Corruptors live so long. You got off a Vortex before your Mothership and Colossi got popped, Focus Fired the Corruptors with your Stalkers, and then went forward for the win. Your opponent quit really early, while he had an enormous amount of resources and 5 bases. I think your Cannons scared him off from attacking your bases.

I would have thought that you would have used other units than your mostly Blink Stalker army. You had no Chargealots, High Templars, Void Rays, or Archons. It didn't matter, as you attacked so late that you had to take on an enormous Infestor/airZerg army, and your Stalkers worked great.
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Omicron please stop posting idiotic things.
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Posts: 8,360
01/21/2013 11:16 PMPosted by Omicron
Tell me whats idiotic about it?


Let just say that I am yet to see you say anything intelligent in all my time on these forums.

I'm not interested in arguing with an incredibly biased low level played with glaring maturity issues. I think everyone would appreciate it if you stopped posting though.

I just looked at your posting history, you seriously have personal issues man.
Edited by TechNo on 1/22/2013 1:00 AM PST
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Posts: 394


I just looked at your posting history, you seriously have personal issues man.


every single post i saw was RE PvZ being imba.
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Posts: 3,501
Basically, if two players of equal skill end up in a PvZ...the zerg will win if:
1) He displays IMPECCABLE control of his macro (i.e. timings, injects, creep)
2) He creates PERFECT unit compositions to "counter" the protoss units
3) He creates PERFECT, zerg-favorable engagements
4) The protoss screws up royally on at least one of the above aspects and/or does not use his spellcasters


I don't think you understand the match-up. Zerg isn't about "perfect" unit combinations, it's about using cheap units (that are very cost efficient except against large tier 3 Protoss armies) to keep map control and develop a superior economy. This allows the Zerg to work up to a Hive tech army that Protoss needs either a large well upgraded air fleet or Collossi/Stalker/Archon with good control and a great Vortex to engage cost efficiently. Even then, the Protoss often loses unless he can also uses warp prisms and DTs to keep the Zerg expansion count down.
Before Hive tech, the Zerg can either play aggressively, trying to knock out the Protoss third and do drops or muta harass or else macro and turtle behind spines. The Zerg should be able to reactively build an army that can maul anytihng Protoss builds as long as you catch it in the middle of the map until the the HT, archon, carrier, VR, or Collossi count reaches critcial mass. At that point, Zerg switches to BL/infestor or Ultra/bane/infestor. The Zerg then either tries to crush the expensive Protoss army and wipe out bases to end the game or else turtle to a max corruptor/BL/infestor army while turning more and more drones into spines as the bank gets bigger, to create an army the Protoss simply can't engage without a lucky vortex (giving up the mobility advantage for power except for a cadre of infestor/ling for backstabs).

But "perfect compositions"? Roach/infestor is viable versus everything until late game, and muta/ling is also good against anything but a double stargate opening until late game. And late game is usually corruptor/BL/infestor, which is viable against everything. And while good infestor control and good splitting is required against good opponents, it's still easier than HT/blink/vortex control. It's Zerg macro, setting up surrounds, and multiple point harass where Zerg gets interesitng and challenging. Even there, Zerg timings are more forgiving than both other races. It's keeping up injects, spreading creep, spending larva, knowing when to build units and when drones which is hard, and that's reactive. So Zerg requires more map awareness, more APM, especially more macro APM, and also more unit multitasking than Protoss. But it's not harder, per se. It's just different, requiring different skills. Play wha tyou like better.
Edited by BlackAdder on 1/22/2013 8:00 AM PST
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01/14/2013 11:36 AMPosted by WRDlucida
First off, this is the WoL forums so any point you made about HotS is moot. Second, you clearly are playing and watching a different game . . .checks match history . . . ya, definitely playing something else.
Looks at post. Checks several pro level games using double stargate and 2 base Mothership builds in WOL at proleague, IPL and, looks back at post.

Does not compute.

FYI, this is my posting account. My match history = irrelevant.
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