StarCraft® II

Fast third PvZ?

Posts: 389
When do you take a fast third in PvZ?
Also do you take your gasses on your natural before taking the third?
How many gateways should you have?
Should you have other tech buildings? If so, which?
How should you be applying pressure?

I really love the macro style of PvZ (even though allinning is fun once in a while). PvT I sorta have it down where i can take a third before 9 minutes and not die. How can I do this with PvZ?
Edited by DOxXzar on 1/12/2013 10:55 PM PST
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Posts: 988
if you can keep your zergie buddy nice and passive, you can take a fast third easily. i've seen people do it using warp prism harass. and even better with warp prism/sentry play (my favorite harass to see, even as it destroys me).

another big thing is map. entombed valley is perfect, since you can wall off your third after breaking the rocks. but it does open you up to muta play.

that's just the plat level zerg's perspective!
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Posts: 8,360
Usually done with a robo and 1-4 gates before the expand (depending on how greedy you are). Make sure he has 3 hatches.

You can also take a third off one gate and chrono out a couple stalkers for light pressure and go into fast twilight for blink. Shortly after your twilight you can grab a robo.

Play around with these builds and find what you like best.
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Posts: 952
Take 3rd at 8 minutes 9 at the latest
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Posts: 1,135
due to the mother ship core in hotS, when a zerg goes for 3 fast bases i've been able to get my 3rd up around 5 minutes and successfully defend it. Only time i lost it was vs some mutas, and even then i would have been fine were it not for a stupid artosis pylon :(.
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Posts: 16,178
01/13/2013 12:57 PMPosted by AMadWalrus
Take 3rd at 8 minutes 9 at the latest
Doesn't work like that unless your Zerg is a noob, or you have a map like Entombed Valley, or you have some unstoppable timing pressure that Zerg cannot counterattack against. It works in HOTS because of the MS Core, but in WOL, the EARLIEST you can take a "fast 3rd" without taking risks on "normal" PvZ maps is between 10-12 minutes. 8 minutes really only applies to a passive non-gas 3 hatch Zerg on Entombed Valley.
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Posts: 488
01/13/2013 06:12 PMPosted by Zamara
Take 3rd at 8 minutes 9 at the latest
Doesn't work like that unless your Zerg is a noob, or you have a map like Entombed Valley, or you have some unstoppable timing pressure that Zerg cannot counterattack against. It works in HOTS because of the MS Core, but in WOL, the EARLIEST you can take a "fast 3rd" without taking risks on "normal" PvZ maps is between 10-12 minutes. 8 minutes really only applies to a passive non-gas 3 hatch Zerg on Entombed Valley.

you can always 1 gate expand or 4 gate robo expand at 8:20.......... i think you have problems with forcefields or maybe you're just bad.
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Posts: 16,178
01/13/2013 09:34 PMPosted by hellokitty
you can always 1 gate expand or 4 gate robo expand at 8:20.......... i think you have problems with forcefields or maybe you're just bad.
Er... We're talking about taking 3rd bases...
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Posts: 16,178
01/13/2013 09:34 PMPosted by hellokitty
i think you have problems with forcefields or maybe you're just bad.
No need for dumb insults; I actually have no issues with using sentry-based play, but prefer tech power-play because it is "easier" (requires less APM) and is comparable to sentry-play, and has more advantages in my opinion.
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Posts: 8,360
01/14/2013 09:38 AMPosted by Zamara
you can always 1 gate expand or 4 gate robo expand at 8:20.......... i think you have problems with forcefields or maybe you're just bad.
Er... We're talking about taking 3rd bases...


So was he.
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Posts: 16,178
01/14/2013 09:54 AMPosted by TechNo
So was he.


No.

01/13/2013 09:34 PMPosted by hellokitty
1 gate expand


01/13/2013 09:34 PMPosted by hellokitty
4 gate robo expand at 8:20
Those aren't 3 base.

1 gate Expand is obvious.

4 gate robo expand is a 1 base pressure into a late expand (and is most likely all-in from a lot of angles).

Or, if he really is talking about 3 base, then 1 gate double expand? FFE into 4 gate robo expand? Both of which seem extremely risky and all-inny, because Zergs doing something like 2 base Muta, 2 base Infestor/ling will take a dump on this.
Edited by Zamara on 1/14/2013 9:59 AM PST
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Posts: 8,360
01/14/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Zamara
No.


I really don't know how to reply to this. You realize you are arguing with a GM right?

01/14/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Zamara
4 gate robo expand is a 1 base pressure into a late expand (and is most likely all-in from a lot of angles).


Shows how little you know about the game I guess.

01/14/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Zamara
because Zergs doing something like 2 base Muta, 2 base Infestor/ling will take a dump on this.


You don't do these builds if you know he is going 2 bases... You know you are allowed to scout right? I think I understand why you don't post on your main account.
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Posts: 16,178
01/14/2013 10:09 AMPosted by TechNo
I really don't know how to reply to this. You realize you are arguing with a GM right?
That makes no difference.

If a GM makes an unsupported claim, I am in the right to question it.

01/14/2013 10:09 AMPosted by TechNo
Shows how little you know about the game I guess.
Enlighten me then? Do you have a link to the build or something? Unless this is a metagame play, any Zerg in his right mind would kill a Protoss going for an 8 min 3rd without units.

Zerg can just stop droning from his 3rd hatch, and dedicate to an 8 min roach kill move. NOTHING Protoss has will save him if he went for 3 bases...

01/14/2013 10:09 AMPosted by TechNo
You don't do these builds if you know he is going 2 bases...
3 base with no drones at 3rd = 2 base play.

01/14/2013 10:09 AMPosted by TechNo
You know you are allowed to scout right?
What will you scout? a Zerg taking a 3rd? Good. Zerg can scout you too, you know, genius?

01/14/2013 10:09 AMPosted by TechNo
I think I understand why you don't post on your main account.
Unfortunately, you do not.

If you want to insult me, go on General, don't pollute these forums.
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Posts: 3,501
Those aren't 3 base.

1 gate Expand is obvious.

4 gate robo expand is a 1 base pressure into a late expand (and is most likely all-in from a lot of angles).

Or, if he really is talking about 3 base, then 1 gate double expand? FFE into 4 gate robo expand? Both of which seem extremely risky and all-inny, because Zergs doing something like 2 base Muta, 2 base Infestor/ling will take a dump on this.

Actually, read the PvZ bible again:

2.1.4 Fast Third Base and its Follow-ups
In response to a Zerg who goes into 3 base total macro mode after seeing your FFE, it's quite possible to take a fast 3rd of your own off of only 1 Gateway, usually between 6:20 and 7:20


3 gate Robo into expand almost always refers to a 3rd base in PvZ, because people never go 3gate Robo from 1 base anymore. I can certainly see your confusion, but Kitty was referring to standard fast 3rd builds.
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Posts: 16,178
01/14/2013 10:23 AMPosted by BlackAdder
n response to a Zerg who goes into 3 base total macro mode
This means against a greedy Zerg with no intention of making any units until he is maxed on drones. Ok, I see now.

Standard macro PvZ is where Zerg actually builds a force (of roaches, or Infestor/roach, or 3 base Muta, or 3 base Infestor/ling) to pressure Protoss so that he cannot get a 3rd base up that quickly, as far as the meta has gone so far in high level tournaments... Even on ladder, it is RARE that I get a passive Zerg where I am left alone to just take bases like that, because it is otherwise considered RISKY. But, kitty seems to be talking about just that ONE situation where Zerg is being greedy - not standard PvZ.

EDIT:
In either case, I did not deserve to be insulted for no reason... I thought we were all friends in these parts. Maybe I was mistaken.
Edited by Zamara on 1/14/2013 10:35 AM PST
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Posts: 3,501
01/14/2013 10:34 AMPosted by Zamara
Even on ladder, it is RARE that I get a passive Zerg where I am left alone to just take bases like that, because it is otherwise considered RISKY

From what I've seen, 1 gate expand is risky: you're really counting on good control and the ability to distract the Zerg to cover the window of vulnernability. But 3 gate Robo with expand by 9 minutes seems much less risky and more standard on maps like Cloud Kingdom, although it does require some good control and tight timings.

EDIT:
In either case, I did not deserve to be insulted for no reason... I thought we were all friends in these parts. Maybe I was mistaken.

You, Techno, and Kitty all have somewhat limited patience for people who come in strong and don't appear know what they're talking about. That unfortunately causes friction, even in a friendly setting. But I wouldn't take it too seriously, I don't think any life-long enemies have been made today. :)
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Posts: 16,178
01/14/2013 11:10 AMPosted by BlackAdder
I don't think any life-long enemies have been made today. :)
Aye :)
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Posts: 389
Seems like you can't really post anything without writing an essay on it without expecting some flak... Oh well.

Thank you all for the help.
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Posts: 3,501
01/14/2013 12:11 PMPosted by DOxXzar
Seems like you can't really post anything without writing an essay on it without expecting some flak... Oh well.

Nah, stay humble and people are pretty good to you usally around here. :) But your questions were vqague enough to leave a number of possible options.
Along with the rest of PvZ, it's covered pretty well in THE comprehensive PvZ guide:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628

Good luck!
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Posts: 488
01/14/2013 10:09 AMPosted by TechNo
No.


I really don't know how to reply to this. You realize you are arguing with a GM right?

4 gate robo expand is a 1 base pressure into a late expand (and is most likely all-in from a lot of angles).


Shows how little you know about the game I guess.

because Zergs doing something like 2 base Muta, 2 base Infestor/ling will take a dump on this.


You don't do these builds if you know he is going 2 bases... You know you are allowed to scout right? I think I understand why you don't post on your main account.

i really think a top 16 gm knows what he's talking about :) but w/e arguments aside, you'll lose late game if you dont play greedy when you need to
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