Balance Tweak Project Map

Posts: 215
Request balance changes for Wings of Liberty and play changes on a published map!

Objective:
The purpose of this map is to take in popular requested balance tweaks and input them in a map for everyone to play. This is about getting hands on experience of many balance debates. This is NOT about challenging the developers of SC2 or trying to achieve a "better" game. It is about experimenting with the "what if we do this" and providing real answers to balance debates.

How did this get started?
There is a popular thread here requesting to made small buffs on Battlecruisers. The thread is more than 20 pages of nonstop discussion without any real evidence and so I replied saying, "Why don't you guys try out these changes on a map? I may not be a melee player but I have basic map edit skills." That was when this project started!

How do I participate?
Simply start discussing and requesting certain small balance changes. When there is a popular one discussed, I will edit the map and release it for a at least a week. We will gather everyone impressions on it and then discuss. I will continually edit the map depending on what changes is asked for. The maps will NOT be accumulated tweaks, but a wave of different sets of tweaks. That means I will only published a tweak for a few days, revert it back to default, then publish another tweak. If there are any popular balance debates on the forums, I will tell players to come to this thread instead.

Types of changes that can be requested:
ALL stats like weapon, armor, health, upgrades, research. Prices on buildings and units. Physics like DPS, attack range, unit speed, unit size, unit appearance. (if popular, I will also do crazy ideas)

How do I start playing this map?:
1. Logon to Starcraft II
2. Click on Arcade on the top left
3. Use the search bar on the top right and type: Balance Tweak Project
4. Hit enter and enjoy!

It is the terrain: Antiga Shipyards and has 1v1, 2v2, FFA or Cooperative game modes.

Version History:
1.8 Feburary 16, 2013
- map is back to original state
- looking for another set of balance. Which one should we use now?

1.7 Janurary 7, 2013
Battlecruiser
- Attack speed decreased by half. Ground attack increased to 16 from 8. Air attack increased to 12 from 6. (Both scale by +2 per upgrade.)
- Range increased to 7 from 6
------------------------------------------
Edited by QueenGambit on 2/16/2013 7:38 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 6,036
How about:

Assault Mode Vikings: Armor Classification changed from Armored-Mechanical to Armored

Also

Tempest: HP reduced to 200, Armor Classification changed from Armored-Mechanical-Massive to Armored-Mechanical

(cause you have to remember that Doncroft wanted the BC buff for HotS, not WoL)
Edited by TheGame on 1/9/2013 9:17 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,593
Snipe 45 (35 massive) damage, please.
Reply Quote
Posts: 13,808
This is a big one because it changes the nature of the Siege Tank a lot:

Remove the inner splash radii (100% for 0.468 and 50% for 0.78).
Change outer splash radii to 33% splash.
Change the damage to 35 (+35 versus armored).

This makes the Siege Tank weaker against bio and in TvZ, but stronger in TvP.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,381
Why has this not gotten more hits?

I assume you're updating this frequently?

Anyway:
  • Decrease viking transformation time.
  • Change Hardened Shields to taking 15 damage. Or if possible, could you have it left the way it is, but if damage above 30 hits it, 15 will go through?
  • Stalkers scale +2 with upgrades.
  • Forcefields are destructable, try 500 hp and 3-5 armor, or 100 HP 10 armor.
  • Change Viking ground damage from 12 to 7x2

  • Decrease Carrier and Battlecruiser build time, and repair Interceptors upon return if possible.
  • Reduce Fungal to what it is right now in WoL while you're at it.
  • Increase Hydra speed (upgrade, if possible) so it works well in testing.
  • A more radical change would to make the Hydra Tier one with 1 supply, reduced cost, health, and damage. Size too, probably.
  • Lump Durable Materials and the Bunker upgrade together, and Raven abilities also get bonus from High-Sec Auto Tracking.
  • Reduce Thor size, I hope this would help to reduce pathing issues.
  • Siege Tank set up time is reduced, or damage changed to 40+10(armored).
  • Allow Sieged Tanks to be picked up by Medivacs. When unloaded, they become unsieged.
  • Another Tank change would be an upgrade to reduce friendly splash (like campaign), or an upgrade to do more damage to shields, say like 5 damage, including splash.
  • Increase MS damage, see if that makes it more useful to use.
  • Seeker missile reduced to 100 energy, range increased to 7-8. Damage and speed remain unchanged.
  • Edited by Allon on 1/29/2013 4:36 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 1,381
    This is a big one because it changes the nature of the Siege Tank a lot:

    Remove the inner splash radii (100% for 0.468 and 50% for 0.78).
    Change outer splash radii to 33% splash.
    Change the damage to 35 (+35 versus armored).

    This makes the Siege Tank weaker against bio and in TvZ, but stronger in TvP.


    I'm not sure if this would make a huge difference TvP. Zealots and Archons wouldn't take any extra damage, but Tanks would take extra from friendly fire when they get close, and that's the whole issue to solve. Also, Immortals would not be affected much by this, as the shields remain unaffected by this change. What were you thinking it would change? I'm curious to know. Also, what specifically would be changed about the radius? I'm confused by the numbers.
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 8,129
    good luck
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 13,808
    01/29/2013 04:34 PMPosted by Allon
    I'm not sure if this would make a huge difference TvP. Zealots and Archons wouldn't take any extra damage, but Tanks would take extra from friendly fire when they get close, and that's the whole issue to solve. Also, Immortals would not be affected much by this, as the shields remain unaffected by this change. What were you thinking it would change? I'm curious to know. Also, what specifically would be changed about the radius? I'm confused by the numbers.

    I'll try explain so that you can understand.
    Factors:
  • The current splash radius has graduated damage. This makes the Siege Tank very devastating to small units in the center of the blast, specifically smaller units such as Zerglings, Roaches, and Marauders.
  • Larger units like Stalkers, Immortals, and Colossus are not affected by this splash in the same way, and they require more single target damage to take down.
  • Resulting Problem:
    =>The Siege Tank's damage cannot currently be buffed against Protoss single targets like it needs to be because the buffs would make Siege Tanks too devastating against these smaller units. Protoss armored units are tougher, and require more tanks to take down. This increases the critical mass for tanks beyond reasonable levels.

    Solution:
  • Change the splash to 33% across the board. Siege Tanks will no longer kill clumped units as quickly; therefore, the Tank's damage can now be buffed against the larger Immortals, Stalkers, and Colossus without causing problems against Zerg and bio. Siege Tanks will remain strong in those match ups.
  • Increase the Siege Tank's damage against armored units. This regains some of the Siege Tank's effectiveness against Roaches and Marauders, and makes it stronger against Stalkers, Colossus, and unshielded (EMP) Immortals. The increased damage lowers the critical mass of tanks needed to one-shot these units.
  • The advantage of these changes is that it takes fewer tanks to kill the larger Protoss armored units.
    -Immortals are easier to deal with after taking down their shields with EMP (3 tank shots instead of 4).
    -Colossus and Stalkers also require fewer shots to take down. This reduces the rather absurd critical mass for Tanks in TvP.

    The support units can handle the rest:
    -Hellions to deal with Zealots.
    -Ghosts to deal with Archons/Immortal_shields.
    -Alternatively Thors to deal with Archons.
    -Vikings for anti-air.

    Now do you understand?
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 1,381
    01/29/2013 04:56 PMPosted by TerranicII
    Now do you understand?


    Yes, thank you. I've never learned how the speed, radii, and acceleration numbers work in the game, so I usually have to irk out some answers.
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 1,215
    This seems like a good idea.
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 719
    Uh... are these for terrans only or what? lol
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 13,808
    01/29/2013 06:55 PMPosted by SunnyD
    Uh... are these for terrans only or what? lol


    All races.
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 1,381
    01/29/2013 06:55 PMPosted by SunnyD
    Uh... are these for terrans only or what? lol


    Looking back, I do see a lot of Terran ideas. I think that's because mech needs the biggest changes of all, because people feel it does't work well enough. Also, a lot of the ones I posted were ideas floating around that were pretty popular, so I thought it would be good if we could test them, like the Forcefield change. That's huge. If we can actually get people to pay attention to this, and get a map running with all these changes, we actually could beta test stuff ourselves and give feedback. I have no idea how to edit, so I'm very, very thankful this guy is offering to. Thanks man!

    P.S. Another change- Nydus Worms are faster, or tougher, or something to make them more useful. Likely HP increase and unloading time decrease would be the most effective.
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 8,080
    Why has this not gotten more hits?

    I assume you're updating this frequently?

    Anyway:
  • Decrease viking transformation time.
  • Change Hardened Shields to taking 15 damage. Or if possible, could you have it left the way it is, but if damage above 30 hits it, 15 will go through?
  • Stalkers scale +2 with upgrades.
  • Forcefields are destructable, try 500 hp and 3-5 armor, or 100 HP 10 armor.
  • Change Viking ground damage from 12 to 7x2

  • Decrease Carrier and Battlecruiser build time, and repair Interceptors upon return if possible.
  • Reduce Fungal to what it is right now in WoL while you're at it.
  • Increase Hydra speed (upgrade, if possible) so it works well in testing.
  • A more radical change would to make the Hydra Tier one with 1 supply, reduced cost, health, and damage. Size too, probably.
  • Lump Durable Materials and the Bunker upgrade together, and Raven abilities also get bonus from High-Sec Auto Tracking.
  • Reduce Thor size, I hope this would help to reduce pathing issues.
  • Siege Tank set up time is reduced, or damage changed to 40+10(armored).
  • Allow Sieged Tanks to be picked up by Medivacs. When unloaded, they become unsieged.
  • Another Tank change would be an upgrade to reduce friendly splash (like campaign), or an upgrade to do more damage to shields, say like 5 damage, including splash.
  • Increase MS damage, see if that makes it more useful to use.
  • Seeker missile reduced to 100 energy, range increased to 7-8. Damage and speed remain unchanged.


  • i like these, alot.

    Or perhaps maelstrom rounds from the campaign tat add +10 to siege tanks at the armory.
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 1,381
    i like these, alot.

    Or perhaps maelstrom rounds from the campaign tat add +10 to siege tanks at the armory.


    I was trying to think of a lot of the ideas I've seen people mention a lot. Often times, they're little changes too, like wanting Stalkers to scale like other units of their level, or trying the TONS of ideas to make Siege Tanks better. I really think simple changes will work the best, like making the Thor smaller so pathing isn't as much an issue.

    The Maelstrom rounds would need to be done carefully. Siege Tanks work well vs T and Z for the most part. Make it too powerful, it'll be overpowered.
    Edited by Allon on 1/29/2013 11:18 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 13,808
    i like these, alot.

    Or perhaps maelstrom rounds from the campaign tat add +10 to siege tanks at the armory.


    I was trying to think of a lot of the ideas I've seen people mention a lot. Often times, they're little changes too, like wanting Stalkers to scale like other units of their level, or trying the TONS of ideas to make Siege Tanks better. I really think simple changes will work the best, like making the Thor smaller so pathing isn't as much an issue.

    The Maelstrom rounds would need to be done carefully. Siege Tanks work well vs T and Z for the most part. Make it too powerful, it'll be overpowered.

    +10 works if it is anti-armor only.

    The only Zerg unit that suffers is the Ultralisk, which will continue to perform at least as well as the Brood War Ultralisk (based on the Ultralisk's supply change). Roaches will be phased out by the time this upgrade hits, and it doesn't affect them.

    The upgrade affects unshielded Immortals and Colossus at +3 weapons in TvP. It also allows you to 3-shot Stalkers earlier if you are slow at gathering the normal +2 weapons upgrades.

    The Marauder is affected at +3, and Thors are also affected, but they will continue to perform well in TvT so it really doesn't matter.
    Edited by TerranicII on 1/31/2013 11:14 AM PST
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 215
    Hello everyone!

    Wow! I didn't expect so many people wanting to be involved on this! Last time I check this post there were only 2 replies including me lol.

    Alright folks Balance Tweak Project for Wings of Liberty is now online. What shall we start with? Lets have a poll on which small changes to make.
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 6,262
    i'd consider a new thread if you want new ideas.
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 215
    we'll keep this thread and just add on to the conversation.

    Version History:
    1.8 Feburary 16, 2013
    - map is back to original state
    - looking for another set of balance. Which one should we use now?
    Edited by QueenGambit on 2/16/2013 12:23 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 215
    How about:

    Assault Mode Vikings: Armor Classification changed from Armored-Mechanical to Armored

    Also

    Tempest: HP reduced to 200, Armor Classification changed from Armored-Mechanical-Massive to Armored-Mechanical

    (cause you have to remember that Doncroft wanted the BC buff for HotS, not WoL)

    This is for Wings of Liberty only. I will not be able to use Heart of the Swarm units or else.

    I can use custom units like even bring back old units like the Dragoon BUT there should be heavy discussion before we use that for a week.
    Edited by QueenGambit on 2/16/2013 12:38 PM PST
    Reply Quote

    Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

    Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

    Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

    Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

    Forums Code of Conduct

    Report Post # written by

    Reason
    Explain (256 characters max)

    Reported!

    [Close]