StarCraft® II

"When should I move out???" --Void Rays

Hey guys! It's me again!

I just want to ask you guys a few things!

Since last time, I pushed myself trying to get out of Bronze Prison! (Silver-Gold MMR) I got into 4v4 Gold, and I feel good!

The problem, however, is the fact that... I'm still stuck in Bronze (Silver MMR), for one simple reason!

Those Silver Leaguers know the following!

a) How to deal with drops

b) How to make collosi

c) How to cheese like no other cheesers (In the last 4v4s I've been playing :P)

d) Everyone knows it's hard to break out!

Well, since I haven't faced any good streaks of winning, and I want to ask!

In TvT, I always lose tank wars, I'm focusing on getting better, but drops are what I do! I usually go for fast 2 tanks, 2 medivacs, 8 :/ soz marines w/o cutting workers too much, should I move out @ 1 medivac, or 2? This is my question in Timing againt TERRAN! (Don't worry, I'm learning how to get better on Adopt-A-Noob)

In TvP, A collosi will %%##%%## me. I don't care what else, but MMM can't deal with 1 collosi. Yeah sure, the last Toss I faced was low Gold, but still, that can't be right! My tanks and MMM were !@#$ed over by those collosi swinging their fancy laz0rs! When should I move out to prevent him from getting Collosi? I move out @ around 120 supply, but that game, I was being VERY rusty!

In TvZ, I'll get back to you next week, when I can ladder a little more again!

BTW, I'm so low in Bronze cause I just got into laddering this season, I took a short hiatus!
Edited by ditao on 1/22/2013 9:45 PM PST
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you are thinking about how to improve all wrong. this is a game of economy. watch filtersc's tutorial on youtube. copy and improve. simple as that. add skills based all around that basic footprint.
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You are thinking about how to improve all wrong. This is a game of economy. Watch filtersc's tutorial on Youtube. Copy and improve. Simple as that. Add skills based all around that basic footprint.


Fixed your grammar mistakes :P

First of all, my economy is fine! My standard build is 1 Rax FE, I usually have 1/1 by the time I face off against a Toss, but I need to know when I should move out so I don't get raped by Collosi!

Also, drops are VERY much based on timings, and, as such, I need to know when to start the drop!

Note: Your post was useless!
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I'm pretty sure everybody here is thinking "macro harder" but you pick apart the first guy to offer you advice, the rest of us won't be much help!

Problem with TvT? Macro better than the other guy, it's bronze!

Problem with Collosi? Vikings.

Problem with cheese? Scout.

Want to know when to drop? Scan. Yes there are more specific timings for all attacks wether they are harass or drops but they depend largely on the meta game and what you can gather from scouting your opponent. You won't need to know this until you move up higher, bronze opponents rarely follow standardized builds.
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Now I warn you, don't take this the wrong way.

01/21/2013 09:43 PMPosted by ditao
First of all, my economy is fine!


It can appear to be, if you are floating a lot of money; you should be spending it faster. At that point you will actually start noticing how little there is to spare, and will want to fine tune your play to get more.

01/21/2013 09:43 PMPosted by ditao
My standard build is 1 Rax FE, I usually have 1/1 by the time I face off against a Toss, but I need to know when I should move out so I don't get raped by Collosi!


FilterSC build: TvP

10 supply depot
12 rax -> make a depot with the same scv after you finish
-> when rax finishes, start making marines
17 orbital command
@400 minerals (with out cutting scvs or marines) make a CC in your natural
-> you will not need to make a depot until after the CC finishes
@300 minerals (with out cutting scvs or marines) make 2 more rax
@125 minerals (with out cutting scvs or marines) make 2 gysers

Keep hitting your scvs and marines, I like to use my first 100 gas to make a factory, than the next 50 to make 2 tech labs, and the next 50 for a reactor.

Get stim started and combat shield, concussion shell is quick to research after (I usually do it first because I have so many marauders). You are going for an MMM ball here.

If you have been good about your scvs you should be able to throw down ONE engi bay to start +1 after you start your factory and add ons, if not just do it a little later

@100% factory, make a starport and make a reactor for it on your factory to switch once its done.

@100% starport make two medivacs, box your army and make some use of it.

If you hit every cycle (you ideally won't miss any scvs, marines, marauders, medivacs, supply depots etc) you should have a decent force, this should be at 10:00. This is the chance before colossus that you have as terran, its nothing fancy but if you look up FilterSC it is a good companion on your way to increasing your skill.

A good way to gauge your progress, is see how many scvs you get at 10:00 with this build.

Filter gets 51, I taper off to 45 on a good day.

From my experience with it:
against weird proxy stargate play, I sometimes don't have enough marines from one reactor barracks to handle it (if they are really persistent). I actually played a game today and someone went SUPER fast carriers, the reactored starport can come in handy if they are REALLY REALLY insisting on some starplay against terran (outside of low number voidray rushes and such, then you just make marines out of all your rax for a while) that masses up after your starport and 2 medivacs finish.

Filter says don't think about getting another expo until you get in a higher league, and while that may seem foolish, if you do this right you should HAVE to until gold + really.

glhf
Edited by fingrknitter on 1/21/2013 11:31 PM PST
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I'm pretty sure everybody here is thinking "macro harder" but you pick apart the first guy to offer you advice, the rest of us won't be much help!

Problem with TvT? Macro better than the other guy, it's bronze!

Problem with Collosi? Vikings.

Problem with cheese? Scout.


*sigh* while there is some merit to your reply, I find it.... well, let me dissect it.

1) this is based on 5 games so far, so, therefore, may not be my norm

2) Try getting a good squad of vikings, 5 tanks, and 120 supply mmm on 2 reactors, and one tech, stim, shields, concussive, 1/1 bio, and 1/0 mech fifteen min in... off of 2 1/2 bases -_-
3) How to deal with proxy rax while ur SCV was killed by him pulling all of his to kill mine?

4) Silver MMR

5) If you read it, i'm trying to improve my TvT as we type!
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Now I warn you, don't take this the wrong way.

First of all, my economy is fine!


It can appear to be, if you are floating a lot of money; you should be spending it faster. At that point you will actually start noticing how little there is to spare, and will want to fine tune your play to get more.

My standard build is 1 Rax FE, I usually have 1/1 by the time I face off against a Toss, but I need to know when I should move out so I don't get raped by Collosi!


FilterSC build: TvP

10 supply depot
12 rax -> make a depot with the same scv after you finish
-> when rax finishes, start making marines
17 orbital command
@400 minerals (with out cutting scvs or marines) make a CC in your natural
-> you will not need to make a depot until after the CC finishes
@300 minerals (with out cutting scvs or marines) make 2 more rax
@125 minerals (with out cutting scvs or marines) make 2 gysers

Keep hitting your scvs and marines, I like to use my first 100 gas to make a factory, than the next 50 to make 2 tech labs, and the next 50 for a reactor.

Get stim started and combat shield, concussion shell is quick to research after (I usually do it first because I have so many marauders). You are going for an MMM ball here.

If you have been good about your scvs you should be able to throw down ONE engi bay to start +1 after you start your factory and add ons, if not just do it a little later

@100% factory, make a starport and make a reactor for it on your factory to switch once its done.

@100% starport make two medivacs, box your army and make some use of it.

If you hit every cycle (you ideally won't miss any scvs, marines, marauders, medivacs, supply depots etc) you should have a decent force, this should be at 10:00. This is the chance before colossus that you have as terran, its nothing fancy but if you look up FilterSC it is a good companion on your way to increasing your skill.

A good way to gauge your progress, is see how many scvs you get at 10:00 with this build.

Filter gets 51, I taper off to 45 on a good day.

From my experience with it:
against weird proxy stargate play, I sometimes don't have enough marines from one reactor barracks to handle it (if they are really persistent). I actually played a game today and someone went SUPER fast carriers, the reactored starport can come in handy if they are REALLY REALLY insisting on some starplay against terran (outside of low number voidray rushes and such, then you just make marines out of all your rax for a while) that masses up after your starport and 2 medivacs finish.

Filter says don't think about getting another expo until you get in a higher league, and while that may seem foolish, if you do this right you should HAVE to until gold + really.

glhf


Little more helpful, I'll check.... after I try to finish day[9]'s boring first daily, abd after Apollo's vids, its teaching me quite a bit! But still, thanks for the help!
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clearly this ditao character shouldnt be asking for help since he already knows better than us. but just in case, here goes. your worry about timings and counters almost dont even apply. sorry, but in bronze (i have been there) all you need is to build a bunker and turret before 7 minutes and follow filtersc's terran guide and win a vast majority of the games.

may suck to hear, but i assure you your macro is NOT fine or you wouldnt be asking. provide a replay if you like and we can examine in detail your shortcomings.

it may sound like i am being mean, but i am not trying to be. the only way you will improve is to be brutally honest with yourself. acknowledge you suck (as i do in diamond every time i start a ladder session), and fix things. one at a time.
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Fine, to be a little bit more helpful on your initial question;

In TvT or against any race for that matter, it's good to keep drops as a viable option throughout the match. IMO it's not worth it to drop if your opponent is still on one base, if they have excessive static defenses (turrents, cannons, spore crawlers), or if they have better map control than you.

Sometimes when I scout a Terran doing any kind of FE buid, I do a single base 1-1-1 with marines hellions and 2 or more medivacs - this can hit pretty hard and even end the game if you reinforce it quickly or micro really well, or if your opponent has very few units. I forget the exact timing of when it hits (I think it's around 7 or 8 minutes) but basically I pump marines on a naked barracks, build a reactor on a factory then pump hellions, and as soon as the starport finishes just build dropships on the naked starport. By the time the second dropship finishes you should have at least 8 marines and 4 hellions which can melt the worker line in the main and hold off any marine reinforcements that come up to stop you. Against tanks you might need to retreat but should be able to do enough damage before they set up.

Do NOT attempt this drop rush if your opponent is on one base, something like 3 rax stim will clean it up nicely and also they might be doing a 1-1-1 push of their own.

Edit: To answer the anti-cheese question, I made it a habit to scout at 12 supply with the SCV that builds my first depot. Perhaps a little paranoid, but like you I am weary of cheese. This also makes it easier to micro your SCV when it gets to their base because there's little going on in your own base with macro, just a barracks being built and SCV's being queu'd up or the refinery going down... anyways with a little micro on this early scout you should be able to keep your SCV alive long enough to check out what your opponent is doing and if there is indeed any cheese going on. No production buildings in their base and no expand = proxy something somewhere, in this case wall off, make a bunker, and throw down a few more rax! Proxy 3-rax with SCV's pulled is probably Terran's strongest early all-in and my personal favorite, but is easily countered by making your own 3-rax and pulling a few SCV's to repair if need be... just be ready for it.
Edited by Bullethead on 1/22/2013 12:25 AM PST
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I'm going to be as honest as possible with you.

What is holding you back, more than your macro, more than your micro, more than not scouting cheese, is your attitude. You won't improve quickly; it's obvious from the way you've responded to everyone here. If your attitude doesn't change, expect to be in bronze for a long, long time.

Your economy is not fine by any means. If it was any good at ALL, you wouldn't be in bronze. In fact, it's so not fine, its low bronze. It's worse than silver level, and that is HORRIBLE. I'm in diamond and my economy is nowhere near fine.

If you want to get better, take the advice, go watch filtersc's Youtube series, shut up, and practice EXACTLY what filtersc tells you to. Otherwise, enjoy being in bronze forever. I would recommend for your next thread, to not dismiss what people who are significantly better than you say. glhf
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In TvT, I always lose tank wars, I'm focusing on getting better, but drops are what I do! I usually go for fast 2 tanks, 2 medivacs, 2 marines w/o cutting workers too much, should I move out @ 1 medivac, or 2? This is my question in Timing againt TERRAN! (Don't worry, I'm learning how to get better on Adopt-A-Noob)

In TvP, A collosi will %%##%%## me. I don't care what else, but MMM can't deal with 1 collosi. Yeah sure, the last Toss I faced was low Gold, but still, that can't be right! My tanks and MMM were !@#$ed over by those collosi swinging their fancy laz0rs! When should I move out to prevent him from getting Collosi? I move out @ around 120 supply, but that game, I was being VERY rusty!


1. I would stick with 1rax FE into 3rax or 1rax FE into double gas 1/1/1. That drop doesn't sound very good. 2 Marines?? That is not very much dps. You have 1 medivac per marine lol. If you want a drop based build look into marine hellion elevator into expo.

2. You need to build vikings vs colosus. There is really no other way around it. Tanks are quite terrible in tvp unless it's a 1 base allin or in some weird situations. From a learning standpoint just stick with MMM viking/ghost. Vikings for colosus and ghosts for templar/archons


First of all, my economy is fine! My standard build is 1 Rax FE, I usually have 1/1 by the time I face off against a Toss, but I need to know when I should move out so I don't get raped by Collosi!

Also, drops are VERY much based on timings, and, as such, I need to know when to start the drop!


There's no nice way to put this, but like most people will say your economy isn't fine. Or you woulden't be bronze. You should watch the filter builds and really focus on constant scv and unit production. Just because you go 1 rax fe doesn't mean your economy is good. Move out when you have medivacs. For map control and to pressure/drop the toss if you can. Try to deny his third while you get yours up and running. Dropping is great. There is no timing. Just try to drop where you can without losing your units for free or at all. The most annoying drops are the ones that get away and might come back.

Feel free to post a replay
Edited by urNumb on 1/22/2013 1:50 AM PST
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im giving you the benefit of the doubt, Lets say your economy and macro is not fine, but perfect. But you dont know the time to attack, you can try the standard times when the protoss is weaker and terran is stronger, but that doesnt work in bronze unless you are against people who practice a single build everytime like a 1 base all in. scouting is the key, if you can scout or know the exact moment when he starts the robo bay, you have a window of opportunity, where he wont have collosi.

The time attacks in bronze change a lot, a lot of players is just massing a army then "A" moving, no matter what race.

My advice is, improve your scouting and your reading, learn to read what means when he have 2 early gases, when he fast expand and what moment, if he have double upgrades at the same time means double forge and the meaning of that.

My best match is against terran because i know what means whatever he is doing, and i know how much money he has or can have at 1 base, or 2 bases, 2 gases or 4 gases. Learn all that about protoss and you are ready.

The other option is scouting, see colosi, make lots of vikings and kill him. Or get more expansions than him, crash your army against his, lose all the units, he lose half and then remax before he can so he lose the other half. Very common in bronze since some people wont move if they are not maxed, but other will attack with everything after a engagement, small or big.
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Bronze
Silver - Wait these are the guys that cheese like no other? The second rung on the ladder?
Gold
Platinum
Diamond
Master
Grandmaster
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1st off post replays if you really want help
01/21/2013 09:43 PMPosted by ditao
First of all, my economy is fine!

I would bet money that your economy isnt fine...
Those Silver Leaguers know the following!

a) How to deal with drops

b) How to make collosi

c) How to cheese like no other cheesers

a) No they dont. try 2 pronged attacks
b) yes they do, most silver leaguers know to make vikings because vikings counter collosus
c) they cheese harder in higher leagues

01/21/2013 09:34 PMPosted by ditao
In TvT, I always lose tank wars, I'm focusing on getting better, but drops are what I do! I usually go for fast 2 tanks, 2 medivacs, 2 marines w/o cutting workers too much, should I move out @ 1 medivac, or 2? This is my question in Timing againt TERRAN! (Don't worry, I'm learning how to get better on Adopt-A-Noob)

Try fe into double gas getting quick tanks and and a fast stim. You dont have any marines and im not sure why. Honestly I would prefer you do filtersc but you seem against that for some reason. Until masters macro is really what you should be focusing on. And as for the question you shouldnt move out at all... you have 2 marines.

01/21/2013 09:34 PMPosted by ditao
In TvP, A collosi will %%##%%## me. I don't care what else, but MMM can't deal with 1 collosi. Yeah sure, the last Toss I faced was low Gold, but still, that can't be right! My tanks and MMM were !@#$ed over by those collosi swinging their fancy laz0rs! When should I move out to prevent him from getting Collosi? I move out @ around 120 supply, but that game, I was being VERY rusty!

Dont make tanks in tvp. Vikings kill collosus. move out at 10 minutes with 2 medivacs and a smattering of marines and marauders.
Edited by htpkAzrael on 1/22/2013 9:26 AM PST
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Little more helpful, I'll check.... after I try to finish day[9]'s boring first daily, abd after Apollo's vids, its teaching me quite a bit! But still, thanks for the help!

#7
11 hours ago
Like


The reason that build is good is it is easy, consistent but ALSO VERY EASY to see yourself improve. It lines up REALLY nicely if you do it right (like once your starport lands on the reactor, you have exactly 200 gas exactly).

My macro isn't "fine", but this build is good to let me know how I am doing; it is a great learning tool. He has several videos, ranging from simplicity (just making marines) and hitting 10 minute benchmarks to the build and timing above; if you don't hit 51 scvs your macro can still use work (I hit like 43-46 on a good day).

The other people here have been helpful so heed their advice, however this is a great build just to measure your progress because everything lines up at a nice, round 10 minutes.
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I'm going to be as honest as possible with you.

What is holding you back, more than your macro, more than your micro, more than not scouting cheese, is your attitude. You won't improve quickly; it's obvious from the way you've responded to everyone here. If your attitude doesn't change, expect to be in bronze for a long, long time.

Your economy is not fine by any means. If it was any good at ALL, you wouldn't be in bronze. In fact, it's so not fine, its low bronze. It's worse than silver level, and that is HORRIBLE. I'm in diamond and my economy is nowhere near fine.

If you want to get better, take the advice, go watch filtersc's Youtube series, shut up, and practice EXACTLY what filtersc tells you to. Otherwise, enjoy being in bronze forever. I would recommend for your next thread, to not dismiss what people who are significantly better than you say. glhf


Update, I DO have Silver MMR -_-

Little more helpful, I'll check.... after I try to finish day[9]'s boring first daily, abd after Apollo's vids, its teaching me quite a bit! But still, thanks for the help!

#7
11 hours ago
Like


The reason that build is good is it is easy, consistent but ALSO VERY EASY to see yourself improve. It lines up REALLY nicely if you do it right (like once your starport lands on the reactor, you have exactly 200 gas exactly).

My macro isn't "fine", but this build is good to let me know how I am doing; it is a great learning tool. He has several videos, ranging from simplicity (just making marines) and hitting 10 minute benchmarks to the build and timing above; if you don't hit 51 scvs your macro can still use work (I hit like 43-46 on a good day).

The other people here have been helpful so heed their advice, however this is a great build just to measure your progress because everything lines up at a nice, round 10 minutes.


THIS! Is what I've been looking for! Not people !@#$%ing about me not making good economy, but by telling me a tip on whats a really good time to attack, when us Terrans are Stronger, and the Protoss are weaker! Thank you!

01/22/2013 09:25 AMPosted by htpkAzrael
And as for the question you shouldnt move out at all... you have 2 marines.

Typo there -_- I usually have EIGHT marines, geez, I wasn't reading

01/22/2013 01:48 AMPosted by urNumb
1. I would stick with 1rax FE into 3rax or 1rax FE into double gas 1/1/1.

That is my standard build -_-

To answer the anti-cheese question, I made it a habit to scout at 12 supply with the SCV that builds my first depot. Perhaps a little paranoid, but like you I am weary of cheese. This also makes it easier to micro your SCV when it gets to their base because there's little going on in your own base with macro, just a barracks being built and SCV's being queu'd up or the refinery going down... anyways with a little micro on this early scout you should be able to keep your SCV alive long enough to check out what your opponent is doing and if there is indeed any cheese going on. No production buildings in their base and no expand = proxy something somewhere, in this case wall off, make a bunker, and throw down a few more rax! Proxy 3-rax with SCV's pulled is probably Terran's strongest early all-in and my personal favorite, but is easily countered by making your own 3-rax and pulling a few SCV's to repair if need be... just be ready for it.


Either we're identical twins in scouting, or.. just... I did something that is good! Yay!

Still typing while half asleep, HAVE FUN!
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this dude just doesnt get it....and wont. i am giving up. gl ditao. might as well play vs ai.
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01/22/2013 10:13 PMPosted by Ngokromo
this dude just doesnt get it....and wont. i am giving up. gl ditao. might as well play vs ai.


Macro can't fix everything!

If I make Marines and Marauders PERFECTLY! At AMAZING MvP Macro! (not that I can, but my minerals is usually low) And... then.... be an idiot and sit in my base... Will that help?

No!

If he has Carriers and a mothership and void rays and stuff, he can still pwn me!

I just wanted to ask, when should I try to attack the enemy when their at their weakest, and I'm at my strongest!

I now know it's around the 10 minute mark, so no thanks to you!
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Macro can't fix everything!

If I make Marines and Marauders PERFECTLY! At AMAZING MvP Macro! (not that I can, but my minerals is usually low) And... then.... be an idiot and sit in my base... Will that help?

No!

If he has Carriers and a mothership and void rays and stuff, he can still pwn me!

I just wanted to ask, when should I try to attack the enemy when their at their weakest, and I'm at my strongest!

I now know it's around the 10 minute mark, so no thanks to you!

Macro can fix almost all problems with micro. The only reason to micro is to make your units kill more then they would usually which makes your opponents macro worse the entire game is all macro based I got into gold 1v1 by macro until 15 mins and pushing out with a 200/200 supply army.
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Macro can't fix everything!

If I make Marines and Marauders PERFECTLY! At AMAZING MvP Macro! (not that I can, but my minerals is usually low) And... then.... be an idiot and sit in my base... Will that help?

No!

If he has Carriers and a mothership and void rays and stuff, he can still pwn me!

I just wanted to ask, when should I try to attack the enemy when their at their weakest, and I'm at my strongest!

I now know it's around the 10 minute mark, so no thanks to you!

Macro can fix almost all problems with micro. The only reason to micro is to make your units kill more then they would usually which makes your opponents macro worse the entire game is all macro based I got into gold 1v1 by macro until 15 mins and pushing out with a 200/200 supply army.


... Thanks.. I guess?????

I'll try to get to 200 supply @ around 15 min.. not sure I'll make it teching as much as I do in the first 10 or so min... and.. HOW DID YOU GET STIM SO FAST?

Yeah

I'll just try one thing at a time... but thanks?
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