"When should I move out???" --Void Rays

Posts: 556
... Thanks.. I guess?????

I'll try to get to 200 supply @ around 15 min.. not sure I'll make it teching as much as I do in the first 10 or so min... and.. HOW DID YOU GET STIM SO FAST?

Yeah

I'll just try one thing at a time... but thanks?

Wait doing the 1 rax fe into 3 rax will get you stim at around 8-9 mins. If you need help in game I can help you tomorrow at around 9 est.
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1. I would stick with 1rax FE into 3rax or 1rax FE into double gas 1/1/1.

That is my standard build -_-


I thought your standard build was a 2 tank 2 marine 2 medivac drop??? -_-
Edited by urNumb on 1/22/2013 11:14 PM PST
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Posts: 10,555
01/22/2013 09:44 PMPosted by ditao
THIS! Is what I've been looking for! Not people !@#$%ing about me not making good economy, but by telling me a tip on whats a really good time to attack, when us Terrans are Stronger, and the Protoss are weaker! Thank you!


...eh...see I knew you wouldn't want to hear from another person that you should work on your macro (because you do, I do to and I am in platinum) so I decided to give you the build that tells you for you :D

10:00 minutes bro, I want to see non-stop production of everything with all your combat shield, conc shell, and stim AS WELL AS +1 attack done WITH at least 50 workers WITH medivacs. If you can do that, you are better than me. If not, I still get to say you need to work on your macro like everyone else below grandmaster has too ;)
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I thought your standard build was a 2 tank 2 marine 2 medivac drop??? -_-


For toss, it's 1 rax FE, for Terran, it's that

10:00 minutes bro, I want to see non-stop production of everything with all your combat shield, conc shell, and stim AS WELL AS +1 attack done WITH at least 50 workers WITH medivacs. If you can do that, you are better than me. If not, I still get to say you need to work on your macro like everyone else below grandmaster has too ;)


GOT IT!

*Start Program* :P
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01/23/2013 03:52 PMPosted by ditao
I thought your standard build was a 2 tank 2 marine 2 medivac drop??? -_-


For toss, it's 1 rax FE, for Terran, it's that

10:00 minutes bro, I want to see non-stop production of everything with all your combat shield, conc shell, and stim AS WELL AS +1 attack done WITH at least 50 workers WITH medivacs. If you can do that, you are better than me. If not, I still get to say you need to work on your macro like everyone else below grandmaster has too ;)


GOT IT!

*Start Program* :P

Dont worry, im sure you macro is PERFECT. ignore what all these people say. Im sure its micro and timings holding you back in bronze
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GOT IT!

*Start Program* :P


Tried it yet? Did you hit the benchmarks? Replay maybe?
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Posts: 1,409
GOT IT!

*Start Program* :P


Tried it yet? Did you hit the benchmarks? Replay maybe?


Well, with my current schedule being 1-2 ladder games on weekdays, I hit a Terran with my drop :D.

... But no Protoss :(

And to all of you who are talking about my macro, I keep mins low til around my push, then I get focused in that, but it's better than most of bronzers!

But fingrknitter, you'll be the only person I send a replay to, and your right, I do need to work on my macro if I want to get to 50 workers, but hey! What matters in the lateish game is your early Eco as well, so I will DEFINATELYNwork toward that!

Glhf, I hate the forums.
Edited by ditao on 1/23/2013 5:26 PM PST
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But fingrknitter, you'll be the only person I send a replay to, and your right, I do need to work on my macro if I want to get to 50 workers, but hey! What matters in the lateish game is your early Eco as well, so I will DEFINATELYNwork toward that!

Glhf, I hate the forums.


Well, really the build speaks for itself; it is a good tool to use on your own. You will know when you get 50 scvs at 10 minutes :D So you don't need to really send me a replay ya know?

Practice against he AI computer (on very easy at first) and trust try to hit the timings perfectly, it is fine to practice like this because you will be moving out for the first time at 10:00 and should have ample units to defend any early attacks (most, scout for proxies).

Don't hate the forums :'( I know its hard sometimes to play this game, because of how competitive it is (I think back on Age Of Empires 2 and remember calling myself "good" and then I placed bronze in this game :S) but that is part of why I like this game :D Embrace the learning process and leave everything you think you know, everything you think you are good at up to just as much scrutiny as the things you think you are lacking.

glhf
Edited by fingrknitter on 1/23/2013 5:38 PM PST
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Posts: 77
i gotta agree with everyone on here u can get to plat with pure macro with lil micro since u seem to be struggling in tvp i assume so id say check out day9's tvp bomber revolution i believe but u can go check it out urself its basically what ginerknitter is telling u to do cept more in depth etc. pretty much with taht build u scout with ur army if theyre going col tech or ht's so u can put down ghost academy asap or add another starport if needed personally i dont but still. normally 2 base col u can just pull all ur scvs and go all in before they get storm which is around 12-13min ish. but i doubt bronze ppl even get ht's. AND even if ur in silver i dont see much difference tbh between silv and bronze unless ur completely new or low bronze. macro is more like st that comes naturally as u play or atleast for me it is i didnt really practice other than ladder if u dont count that as practicing. with the bomber build for tvp u can pretty much kill toss around 10 min mark as silv toss cant do !@#$ thats if ur doing everything correctly. as for cheeses, um u dont wanna know how strong higher league cheeses are when done correctly. normally u can scout cheese but scouting comes naturally as well normally u look for his nexus energy expo etc. and for tvt just go do thorzains tvt build which u can find on day9 as well. if u have any actual questions ask me i can help u
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Posts: 1,059
this dude just doesnt get it....and wont. i am giving up. gl ditao. might as well play vs ai.


Macro can't fix everything!

If I make Marines and Marauders PERFECTLY! At AMAZING MvP Macro! (not that I can, but my minerals is usually low) And... then.... be an idiot and sit in my base... Will that help?

No!

If he has Carriers and a mothership and void rays and stuff, he can still pwn me!

I just wanted to ask, when should I try to attack the enemy when their at their weakest, and I'm at my strongest!

I now know it's around the 10 minute mark, so no thanks to you!


So, you are right, macro doesn't fix "everything", but it does fix most (like 90%) of things which is why when you say, "I'm in bronze but I have Silver MMR" everyone above bronze thinks, "...if he just had better macro he'd be in platinum."

In terms of breaking down whether your macro is the problem or whether it's an actual strategy issue you can answer the question yourself pretty easily.

Step 1: watch a replay selected at random.
Step 2: Pause it at 10:00 on the nose.
Step 3: bring up the unit counting tab.
Step 4: Look at your total food count.

Now, if your macro is good your unit counting tab should read 50-52 SCVs if you are one rax FE'ing or 36 SCVs off of a one base play. In your food count it should say 100/1xx or slightly more. You should also have some tech, (for example: 2 medivacs or a medivac and a tank or 2 tanks) and 2 or 3 upgrades (I usually go for +1, Stim, and combat shield).

If this is not what you see in your replay, then it IS your macro. Period.

There is no way to determine how the game would have played out versus any given opponent if you had only had better macro.

I recently played a couple of practice games versus a guy who was ranked just a little higher than you and after the game he said he felt like his macro was fine, but that I had still steamrolled him. So, I watched the replay, and his worker production was spotty (31 at 10 min to my 51), which meant he didn't have enough money to compete. Just so you know, 20 workers is 16 marines per minute worth of minerals.

That is so big that it doesn't even matter that he split his army and dropped my main while I was kicking down his front door with my 60 food marine tank army. I crushed his base and was able to stop his army with just my reinforcements.

Also, you should be able to beat a Void Ray'ing player with Marine/Medivac/ghost/viking: you can usually hit all of the void rays with one EMP and then stim in and go back to macroing for the win. Void ray players usually try to get in a secret base, so, if you can't push them at the front, send a small squad or two (not your whole army) of marines around to all for the expansions to limit their economy. If they have a cannon-wall around their base you have plenty of options, though I usually park the meat of my army near their front door and build a turret ring all the way around their base.
I take the second, smaller chunk of my army and poke around the back of their base with it. Sometimes you can draw the void rays forward by poking the front and then drop the smaller army in the back.

If they are going void ray, you can afford to spend the money on turrets in your base and you can also expand freely, as void rays aren't actually very good vs Terran.
Edited by BrockLanders on 1/23/2013 6:51 PM PST
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Posts: 77


Macro can't fix everything!

If I make Marines and Marauders PERFECTLY! At AMAZING MvP Macro! (not that I can, but my minerals is usually low) And... then.... be an idiot and sit in my base... Will that help?

No!

If he has Carriers and a mothership and void rays and stuff, he can still pwn me!

I just wanted to ask, when should I try to attack the enemy when their at their weakest, and I'm at my strongest!

I now know it's around the 10 minute mark, so no thanks to you!


So, you are right, macro doesn't fix "everything", but it does fix most (like 90%) of things which is why when you say, "I'm in bronze but I have Silver MMR" everyone above bronze thinks, "...if he just had better macro he'd be in platinum."

In terms of breaking down whether your macro is the problem or whether it's an actual strategy issue you can answer the question yourself pretty easily.

Step 1: watch a replay selected at random.
Step 2: Pause it at 10:00 on the nose.
Step 3: bring up the unit counting tab.
Step 4: Look at your total food count.

Now, if your macro is good your unit counting tab should read 50-52 SCVs if you are one rax FE'ing or 36 SCVs off of a one base play. In your food count it should say 100/1xx or slightly more. You should also have some tech, (for example: 2 medivacs or a medivac and a tank or 2 tanks) and 2 or 3 upgrades (I usually go for +1, Stim, and combat shield).

If this is not what you see in your replay, then it IS your macro. Period.

There is no way to determine how the game would have played out versus any given opponent if you had only had better macro.

I recently played a couple of practice games versus a guy who was ranked just a little higher than you and after the game he said he felt like his macro was fine, but that I had still steamrolled him. So, I watched the replay, and his worker production was spotty (31 at 10 min to my 51), which meant he didn't have enough money to compete. Just so you know, 20 workers is 16 marines per minute worth of minerals.

That is so big that it doesn't even matter that he split his army and dropped my main while I was kicking down his front door with my 60 food marine tank army. I crushed his base and was able to stop his army with just my reinforcements.


all i can say is that i agree with every single thing u just said
Edited by VanSCStaR on 1/23/2013 6:50 PM PST
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Posts: 370
Macroing well means a bigger army, stronger army (more tech) and a stronger economy to remake that army ASAP. It will help you get much further if you focus on that.

But to answer your questions:

Tank Wars - The drop should be small but big enough to draw his army out of position. You want to force him into an uncomfortable position. Also the correct (or what I was taught by various masters friends) way of breaking tank line is marauder or tank first and then stim marine follow.

Colossi - you should cut tanks for bigger bio army and more vikings. Fight favorable grounds for engagement. Terran fights better in open space against protoss. Also vikings should lead in front to eitehr force colossi back or do damage fast. The colossi will have already done their job if they wiped out all your ground bio.
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Posts: 1,409
Now... THIS is what I've been expecting of battlenet, a nicer community than steam, trying to help someone get on his feet. :)

So... I do realize I need to macro harder, everyone does. However, I wanted tips on when, and how to know when to move out, not someone saying "macro = win no matter what!" I just needed tips on how to know what my enemy is doing, and when to move out

So when I can play ladder again, which might be Friday, I'll get back to you.

By the way, how do I know what my enemy is doing when I scout/ 6:30 scan?
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Posts: 10,555
01/23/2013 08:38 PMPosted by ditao
By the way, how do I know what my enemy is doing when I scout/ 6:30 scan?


You won't know everything, but I always check for expansions of theirs with scvs and what not and then WITH a scan, it tells you lots.

Namely, tvt, them cloaked banshees :S

I have not gotten good at scouting as a terran yet however, so I leave the better part of this question un answered.
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Posts: 77
Now... THIS is what I've been expecting of battlenet, a nicer community than steam, trying to help someone get on his feet. :)

So... I do realize I need to macro harder, everyone does. However, I wanted tips on when, and how to know when to move out, not someone saying "macro = win no matter what!" I just needed tips on how to know what my enemy is doing, and when to move out

So when I can play ladder again, which might be Friday, I'll get back to you.

By the way, how do I know what my enemy is doing when I scout/ 6:30 scan?


im sure u get supply blked sinec i say macro ima just explain it to u and then get to ur questions.

so first of all in lower leagues id say not getting supply blked is important even in higher leagues, ppl like me get supply blked under pressure or so around 140+supply i start getting supply blked. also ive noticed that alot of low league ppl barely expand for a third. id say aim to get ur third up by 12 min mark and ofc nvr stop scv production. theres lots more but i wont go into details in those

k now for ur questions, what i usually do is scout at 14 supply, rally ur 13th scv to ur opponent's base while in production. scout around, dont leave his base till he has st that can kill u for example, marine, zeglins, stalkers. zealots cant kill u so u can still stay in his base. now with that scv hide it somewhere maybe his third or for example on antiga u know the space between ur natural and third? yeah hide it there or any place tahts not easy to be found. in tvp for instance if u see his stalkers on the map which wld probably be at around 5:30ish? u move ur scv into his base again for another check. usually im assuming in low leagues toss dont really send out their stalker to put slight pressure so u cant raelly do taht but u shld sitll send in ur scv at around5:30-6 mark for another check in the base thats. now onto scouting, lets say u scout toss with early 2 gas, u can assume it cld be dt or blink stalker if u see twilight extremely early. as for zerg u can scan for to see waht kinda tech theyre going for eexample spire, etc. wha tsome ppl like to do like naniwa he baiscally atks with his army early on to scout what his opponent is doing for example like his army composition etc.

now for terran, if hes on 1 base u can assume its an early tech push or some kinda allin. for example u can see if he goes for gas first on ur first scout. usually that may be a hellion drop or banshee expand. i see alot of low leagues just do some simple tank push with 2 tanks some scvs and a couple of rines. u can stop that by pulling some scvs off mine and atk him before he reaches ur base. if he seiges up u pretty much have to sacrifice ur scvs as meat shields to break it. now this is where the micr comes in. when u engage that u wanna split ur stuff and then with the rines focus fire the tank while scvs tank damage. if u scout banshee what i like to do is place a turret at the edge of my base where banshee usually come in and one turret by my mineral line with rines supporting. rmb to save a scan. now with rines u dont wanna be letting him kite u with his banshee so when he kites what i used to do was i try to chase after the banshee but u shldnt do taht and instead u shld pull ur rines bk and u force his banshee to come after ur rines instead. if he has cloak ofc u need to save ur scan if not id still save one just incase.

now for zerg before the 5:30 mark which is usually zerg gets map ctrl as they got speed done so u wanna pull ur rines bk into ur base and just leave one by watch tower. usually if u see alot of lings early on it usually means an bane bust is coming or u cld scan and if they have roach warren etc. now i do know taht in lower leagues typically bronze-gold and low plats, zergs just make random stuff so u cant raelly scout relaly wel with that. but in higher leagues u can tell if hes going for allin or w/e i recommand polt's hellion maruader push which can deny his third and put u on a good spot for mid game

now ik this isnt really everything but i hope i helped if u have any more questions ask me or add me in game
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Posts: 32
01/22/2013 09:44 PMPosted by ditao
THIS! Is what I've been looking for! Not people !@#$%ing about me not making good economy, but by telling me a tip on whats a really good time to attack, when us Terrans are Stronger, and the Protoss are weaker! Thank you!

01/22/2013 10:28 PMPosted by ditao
I now know it's around the 10 minute mark, so no thanks to you!


Diato, you posted this in response to Ngokromo. Ngokromo had previously said...

follow filtersc's terran guide and win a vast majority of the games.


It's Filters Terran guides that walk you through the macro to push out at 10 minutes with MMM with stim and +1. You'll also have a reinforcement of 12 units / minute pushing his base.

You've been advised several times, watch Filter's tutorials. It's because it will cover what you're looking for (how to swing properly into timing pushes) and much more. I can vouch for them myself.
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Posts: 1,409
01/23/2013 09:43 PMPosted by Lunimus
THIS! Is what I've been looking for! Not people !@#$%ing about me not making good economy, but by telling me a tip on whats a really good time to attack, when us Terrans are Stronger, and the Protoss are weaker! Thank you!

I now know it's around the 10 minute mark, so no thanks to you!


Diato, you posted this in response to Ngokromo. Ngokromo had previously said...

follow filtersc's terran guide and win a vast majority of the games.


It's Filters Terran guides that walk you through the macro to push out at 10 minutes with MMM with stim and +1. You'll also have a reinforcement of 12 units / minute pushing his base.

You've been advised several times, watch Filter's tutorials. It's because it will cover what you're looking for (how to swing properly into timing pushes) and much more. I can vouch for them myself.


Well, first of all, why does everyone presume I have the time to watch his vids?

Sometimes I don't, in fact, this message is being posted to you from my phone. I usually only watch YouTube @ home, because I don't really need to pay to stream the Internet. But, when I get home, I usually use the computer to hook up a game session with my friends, most of which who don't have Starcraft. And when my friend who's still a noob at Starcraft and I played with my other friends @ Howies game shack, since we saw no other way to intro them to Starcraft, I won a 1 v 6 with SkyToss... So yeah, most time on computer is playing Starcraft, or playing other games.

I will watch the vids, but I'm still meandering through Apollos vids, plus fingr told me the build in text... So yeah.. PEACE!!! (yes, I live in PST and am not in house @ 10, so what?)
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Posts: 77
i like how i got completely ignored but okay.. cool LOL i live in vancouver so PST for me too just so if anyone wanted to know :DD
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Posts: 1,409
01/23/2013 09:56 PMPosted by VanSCStaR
i like how i got completely ignored but okay.. cool LOL i live in vancouver so PST for me too just so if anyone wanted to know :DD


Don't worry, you weren't completely ignored, I'm just still trying to understand your grammar. I'm a Grammar !@#$'s.... Friends cousin???
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Posts: 77
oh LOL srysry i posted that thru my phone so it was kinda like a in a rush and i didnnt really prepare like an outline and plan how to write it out haha maybe u cld just ask me in game and i can explain each questions one at a time
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