StarCraft® II

Zerg......

Posts: 2,248
So here I am to beat the dead horse.

I thought I had gotten to a stable point vs zerg, where wins where based on my proper playing and most losses where my fault but turns out it only worked vs careless ones.
I cannot touch a zerg playing the safe game.

Every. Single. Zerg. I have played in the past two days has done the exact same thing.

(cross locations) three base into muta harass behind a spine forest into gglord/winfestor.

Its not the muta that's important here but the fact that I *really* do not see a way I can stop their stupid auto 3base without a dumb all-in or the chances of a gimmick move working.

Spine forest doesnt seem to be delaying them in any way, they own the map mid game and they moment the infestors pop out they seem to be able to trade with ridiculous efficciency to slow me down just enough to mass the BLs.

I have gone games where I take down their whole BL/festor army but then get owned by their remax.
The closest I seem to get to not giving them an auto win is starting every tech from the moment my nat is done, and not losing nearly any units until I've the ideal late game comp.
This is counting on him deciding to try and deny my third and having an unsuccessful trade at one of my ramps.

Their 3 base is 90% guaranteed no sweat, they own the map midgame and their late game arrives way earlier than mine while being almost unbeatable. If a zerg plays its game safe, I do not see a way to beat them without them doing a major screw up.

*Rage*

How are you guys doing it?
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Posts: 8,360
If you like to ffe and don't want to deal with mutas just open with a stargate. Get 4 phoenixes and a void ray optional, 4 gates and a robo and expand. You are pretty safe vs everything with a stargate. Do warp prism harass with zealots and the immortals once they become useless.

I personally do Nony's 2 gate expand as my standard into a quick stargate and have no problem with zerg. Many zergs don't know how to deal with gateway expands.
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Posts: 1,203
01/23/2013 09:31 PMPosted by Leongrad
How are you guys doing it?

got finals this week so thats a my life.
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Posts: 2,248
If you like to ffe and don't want to deal with mutas just open with a stargate. Get 4 phoenixes and a void ray optional, 4 gates and a robo and expand. You are pretty safe vs everything with a stargate. Do warp prism harass with zealots and the immortals once they become useless.

I personally do Nony's 2 gate expand as my standard into a quick stargate and have no problem with zerg. Many zergs don't know how to deal with gateway expands.


Thanks but as I mentioned, pesky though they are, the problem isn't the mutas but the fact that I seem unable to scratch a zerg that plays it safe.

I'm talking about cross position 3base, spines galore and making multiple queens while droning.
His queens deny most stargate harass, and his spines + queens + larva keep him safe from anything on the ground.
He can choose to go roach and muscle around or muta to cheese me with, the end result always seems to be the same. He ends up with GGlord/festor and he wins.

Although a protoss late game army from 4+ bases of carrier/archon/HT+support is definitely solid, it feels absolutely unreachable in time if the zerg doesn't screw up big time.
Edited by Leongrad on 1/23/2013 10:38 PM PST
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Posts: 538
minigun has been pretty solid against this in the north american meta. he brings almost every single pvz to lategame and handles himself pretty well against the standard fester/brood comp.
Most of his matches seem to be against zerg(zerg fotm right now I guess), so most of the streams will show examples of this.

http://www.twitch.tv/colminigun/videos?kind=past_broadcasts

last couple days he hasn't seemed quite on, so maybe click back to last week

he almost always opens robo into fast third, and vs their doom army uses speed warpprism harass with chargealots(sometimes he goes through 7+ warpprisms a game), mothership, archon, colossus, and blink stalkers
if the zerg is particularly fester heavy there is an emphasis on hts for feedbacks
Sometimes he will transition to air, but only if he is mega rich and they have too many broods

*for minigun atleast, colossus are extremely important to stomp broodlings and ITs asap, and sniping any festers that stray too close
Edited by CakeMountain on 1/23/2013 10:52 PM PST
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Posts: 324
If you are watching your replay and seeing him get to 70-80 workers and you are still in like the 40's or low 50s then that's why you're losing.

He's getting a massive eco advantage early and just riding it into the late game making it worse with his better tech.

You need to keep up.

Take that third earlier and keep building workers.

You'll notice the game is much different if you keep pace with his worker count... assuming you don't forget extra gateways and are spending your money of course :)

Try a zealot and 2 stalker poke to his third to kill a queen/couple of workers then warp in near his third with 4 gates off 2 base and +1 attack completed. Your zealots will work his lings over badly ... if he has roaches then you just send the zealots home since he can't catch you that early in the game off creep.

You will have forced several larva to become roaches and/or lings instead of drones.. meanwhile you are taking a third in the background yourself and constantly building workers.

You have to do some kind of attack early and before 10 mins otherwise he's free to drone and get that lead... which the good zergs can carry into the late game.

You can't let him get that lead in the first place.

I find the first zealot/2 stalker poke to force out enough units then the 4 gate poke later forces more units... alot of the time you will just kill his third and the game is over if you make sure to tech up and play turtle'ish until you can realize your lead later in the game.

When I say turtle'ish... I'm usually building sentry/immortal at home and walling/canon'ing up my third. After that it's up to you but I really recommend going for double upgrades with 2 forges into chargelot/archon/immortal.

If you keep up with him economically, this composition beats anything he can do.
Edited by Nopskillz on 1/24/2013 11:34 AM PST
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Posts: 538
sending your first zealot and first stalker right to their third can be really annoying

they both get there at the same time due to stalker speed and you can get a queen or a few drones if they aren't on top of things, and because they are trying to crazy drone they might not have more than 2 or 4 lings across the map
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Posts: 2,248
If you are watching your replay and seeing him get to 70-80 workers and you are still in like the 40's or low 50s then that's why you're losing.

He's getting a massive eco advantage early and just riding it into the late game making it worse with his better tech.

You need to keep up.

Take that third earlier and keep building workers.

You'll notice the game is much different if you keep pace with his worker count... assuming you don't forget extra gateways and are spending your money of course :)

Try a zealot and 2 stalker poke to his third to kill a queen/couple of workers then warp in near his third with 4 gates off 2 base and +1 attack completed. Your zealots will work his lings over badly ... if he has roaches then you just send the zealots home since he can't catch you that early in the game off creep.

You will have forced several larva to become roaches and/or lings instead of drones.. meanwhile you are taking a third in the background yourself and constantly building workers.

You have to do some kind of attack early and before 10 mins otherwise he's free to drone and get that lead... which the good zergs can carry into the late game.

You can't let him get that lead in the first place.

I find the first zealot/2 stalker poke to force out enough units then the 4 gate poke later forces more units... alot of the time you will just kill his third and the game is over if you make sure to tech up and play turtle'ish until you can realize your lead later in the game.

When I say turtle'ish... I'm usually building sentry/immortal at home and walling/canon'ing up my third. After that it's up to you but I really recommend going for double upgrades with 2 forges into chargelot/archon/immortal.

If you keep up with him economically, this composition beats anything he can do.


I think you might be missing my point.

Obviously if he's ahead of me he has the upper hand, the problem is I cannot seem to touch a zerg that plays a safe game on cross map positions.

He pools-expands, makes 4-6 lings to keep on the tower and in front of my ramp, expands again, pumps queens/drones/spines and proceeds forward from there.
The queens and spines have shut down all my approaches on either ground or air, and he will make actual units if he feels unsafe. It feels like I cannot stop him from getting the upper hand and hence I get rolled as soon as his air cheese pops up.

I will try the faster third then, thx.
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Posts: 954
01/24/2013 02:10 PMPosted by Leongrad
I will try the faster third then, thx.


Your 4th should be started at 12 minutes btw, half saturate the mins and saturate the gas, play greedy when you need to, that's how you improve, play smart but greedy
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Posts: 2,110
It can also help to fake the immortal sentry all-in. Assuming there isn't an overlord currently on top of your 3rd take a few immortals and sentries and just move out on the map being careful to not overextend. Kill of a few lings and take a watchtower and then retreat.

Anything you can do to force out units can make a huge difference.
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Posts: 3,649
1 oracle into a few voids and then getting nix when I see the mutas. 5 nix shut down the mutas pretty hard, and I end up feeling safe enough to take 1 or 2 expos. Mass voids once the mutas are leaving you alone, and then just start running in for 20 sec/min with the voids activated ability to their main, tech, or spine wall.

Granted, i'm not opening standard. I'm messing with a 1 gate fe that makes that early third fairly hard to take.
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Posts: 509
I would like to see a Replay. I have seen very few Zerg play it safe. They are usually the first to the battle because they can't defend until they get really good Creep spread. They are also very vulnerable during early expansion. Zerg turtleling is slow but can be solid. Spine Forests are very difficult for Gate Tech to deal with. It IS pretty common to see Zerg players drop a hedge of SpineForest to protect the path between their first two bases.

Protoss is very good at finding non-direct paths into any base. I have seen Protoss players take on SpineForests with Gateway Tech with mixed results. The next three, Twilight Council Tech, Robo Tech, and Stargate Tech are also often executed with mixed results. It is very easy for Zerg to reinforce the SpineForest with ground units, so you should have AoE for a Zergling swarm (Time Warp can delay reinforcements, including Locusts) or maybe Feedback to kill the healing Queens.

I like some of the suggestions posted here.

I can be rather creative, so maybe I can think up something weird. Or maybe my mad ramblings will be of no help...

FFE to Stalkers to kick the Overlords out of your base. Phoenixes to patrol the rim of the map to take out more Overlords (often hiding in clusters, but this field tactic will force Spore Crawler production, which will make DTs only useful next to your Cannon Farms). Make a pair of Observer/Zealots teams to take out Creep Tumors. See the early 3rd and set a large Cannon Farm at their 4th base. (Use it as a distraction or as a Proxy Pylon if you have more than 4 Warpgates.) Send out Warp Prism/Observer team (with a pair of HTs to Feedback burrowed Infestors). If you make DTs, hide them until you have enough to do significant damage, such as after an Immortal Drop takes out the Spore Colonies. Hide one NEXT TO a Probe that is holding a Xel'Naga Tower. Have a DT on a HotKey hide on hold in the Zerg's main, and during a battle have it A-Move to empty ground, so the Zerg will hear "Our base is under attack" during the battle. (You can <right-click> a spot in the Zerg's base on the minimap, <shift> <P>, <left-click> adjacent space.) [When WoL first came out, there was a player who made mass Sentry with Colossi and Hallucinated Colossi (to bait Neural Parasite). The range 9 of the Colossi took out the Zerglings and static defenses and the Sentries had Guardian Shield and anti-air attacks. I haven't seen this play in a while and there is probably a good reason.] You can try something like Zerg "bane rain" by dropping 8 Archons in their base and then making more.
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