StarCraft® II

PvP Mirror Help?

Meh I got tired of being cheesed so I just hit with DTs at 6:30 ish with a proxy pylon. GG. Even if they defend you morph DTs into archons and sentries cant hold them back!
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630 seems a bit late if you don't end up doing any damage
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try out HerO's Phoenix build (just google it, google is your friend).

You can scout, harrass with phoenix without ever commiting to a huge attack early on. If the enemy is bad you can inflict terrible terrible damage, and even if they're good you can pick off a few probes and get scouting.

At this point the enemy will either A) all in you, or B) expand really fast. most people expo really fast, so this will also give you a chance to get quite a few more late game pvp games than normal (if that's what you desire).
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aren't you kind of in a rough spot if they see you use your energy on probes and decide to push?
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If you're plat, then hello fellow plat toss!

I also use the 2 gate aggressive expand. And love it. However, remember, like most of sase's builds, the timings are extremely crisp and unforgiving.

You need to be spot on with your buildings, otherwise you'll be late with things and won't be able to handle the pressure. also, you need to be very good with scouting, and follow up builds.

Its frustrating when I lose with the 2 gate expo. But when I watch the reply I realize there is something I didn't do right. And like any sase build, if you don't do it 99.9% right, you lose. but if you do execute properly, you have very very VERY good results. its just difficult. and takes a lot of practice.
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Oh wow there's some bad info in this thread. Both sase's 2-gate expand and hero's stargate build require major adjustments to deal with a 4-gate. Both cut the line for defense as close as possible and require micro at about the same level as your opponent.

I say this as somebody whose favorite 2 pvp builds are an aggressive 2-gate expand and phoenix builds. You can't defend a 4-gate with only 2 gateways of attacking units and you can't defend it with phoenix.

Sase's aggressive 2-gate relies on denying a forward pylon and then going up to 4 gateways before expanding. You have to match 4-gate to 4-gate before you can throw down an expansion. You can also go 2-gate robo and just delay the attack until you can get an immortal.

Hero's phoenix build you actually have to stop phoenix production after 1, get up sentries and forcefield your ramp until you can get an immortal. If you build more than 1 phoenix you'll be short a sentry and there will be a gap in your forcefields the opponent can run up your ramp.

Also this is all terrible advice that is way behind the metagame. None of these rule apply anymore:
Rule of PvP he who expands first loses.
"The protoss with the most collosus wins"
PvP is all about whoever is the most effectively aggressive will win.


I've won plenty of PvPs with purely defensive play. Robo builds and colossus lend itself well to defense and do poorly with aggressive tactics. I've watched plenty of people throw games away by attacking into my force and losing.

Whoever has the most collosus wins hasn't been true since at least before Rain made a splash at wcg. Having a decent colossus count is important, but having more immortals/archons to absorb colossus fire suddenly becomes the higher priority. Rain would stop at 8 colossus and switch to immortal production and win. For some time creator has been stopping at 5 colossus before going to immortals, and will often go 1-robo for immortals and 1 for colossus.

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Expanding safely

Now it is possible to do a defensive 2-gate expand on *certain maps* by relying on small ramps. A good example of this is daybreak. This involves a 3 stalker opening followed by 4 sentries. You then have to get an immediate robo and chrono out an immortal in order to hold. Keep in mind if you try this on a cloud kingdom you won't be able to forcefield the large entrance to the left, not to mention you die outright to a blink build.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341176

If you face a 4-gate all you have to do is throw down 2 extra gateways and do a 4-gate vs 4-gate battle or you have to throw down a robo and do a 2-gate robo expand. 3 stalker rush only delays a 4-gate. It doesn't straight up stop it.
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