StarCraft® II

1gate expand into 4 gate vs Z

Posts: 852
have anyone try this build? I use it about 5 times now, and it seem kinda good.

Edit: let me be clear, it does not require forge or anything. Open like you Fe in PvT.
Edited by ACIDCYCLONE on 1/27/2013 11:23 AM PST
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Posts: 2,108
The +1 attack 4-gate zealot pressure?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#2.1.5

I use it every so often. Especially when things go a little weird at the beginning like a zerg trying to place a hatch at your natural.

I run it off a forge first expand so my timing might be slightly later than a gate-first expand.

Zergs can still have a few lings to try and deny proxy pylons and can get roaches up to prevent damage.

I really like the attack personally, but it delays your tech heavily so you are going to need to do at least some damage to make it worthwhile.
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Personally I always get a 15 pool and if I see an early expansion I'll do a 7RR. Dunno if you would hold that off with a single gateway.
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01/27/2013 10:53 AMPosted by wraithcube
The +1 attack 4-gate zealot pressure?

nono brother. Gateway Fe like the one you do vs terran

01/27/2013 10:56 AMPosted by Graboid
Personally I always get a 15 pool and if I see an early expansion I'll do a 7RR. Dunno if you would hold that off with a single gateway.

the thing is, you can't tell if I'm going to expand or all in cuz I open like a 4gate.
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I've seen this work quite well and had some success with it before. It's a pretty good build and many zergs don't know how to deal with this style. I still prefer the tech and sentry heavy 2 gate expand though.
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01/27/2013 11:22 AMPosted by ACIDCYCLONE
The +1 attack 4-gate zealot pressure?

nono brother. Gateway Fe like the one you do vs terran

Personally I always get a 15 pool and if I see an early expansion I'll do a 7RR. Dunno if you would hold that off with a single gateway.

the thing is, you can't tell if I'm going to expand or all in cuz I open like a 4gate.


If the cybernetics core doesn't go down as soon as the gateway finishes its a FE. Plus gas timings.
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01/27/2013 01:46 PMPosted by Graboid

nono brother. Gateway Fe like the one you do vs terran


the thing is, you can't tell if I'm going to expand or all in cuz I open like a 4gate.


If the cybernetics core doesn't go down as soon as the gateway finishes its a FE. Plus gas timings.
my cyber will go down before nexus. I like said, open up like a pvt.

I had defend 6 pool and roaches all in with this build so far.
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01/27/2013 12:57 PMPosted by TechNo
I've seen this work quite well and had some success with it before. It's a pretty good build and many zergs don't know how to deal with this style. I still prefer the tech and sentry heavy 2 gate expand though.
finally someone know what I'm talking about.
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I have seen what you are referring to. It can hit at an extremely awkward time for zergs. I've actually seen it win outright, but I'm not a fan of it because if a zerg expects it they can prevent it from doing almost any damage.
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01/28/2013 08:23 AMPosted by wraithcube
because if a zerg expects it they can prevent it from doing almost any damage.


You could say that about literally any harassment, timing attack, or all-in.
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Well there's a lot of stuff you can do that guaranteed damage or at least forces it to come down to micro of some sort. PvZ has a lot of little timing attacks where zergs can actually reduce the damage to 0.

Take the +1 zealot 4 gate timing. If zerg gets out a few roaches in time they can take out all the zealots without taking any damage. All they had to do was build a couple roaches they would have built a little earlier. At the same time if they delay roaches it can easily take out the 3rd base.

It's why the immortal sentry all-in is so popular. It guarantees some damage regardless of what zerg does and it puts a significant portion of the damage in your own ability to micro rather than hoping the zerg doesn't have the micro to defend your attack.

PvP and PvT have plenty of little battles where you can force some kind of army trade or to pressure your opponent forcing them into a defensive stance. PvZ is just frustrating at times because it feels like zergs can completely negate any strategy, pressure, or timing attack while still building toward their desired composition.
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I saw this in action last night. My friend is a top 100 GM Zerg in both WoL and HoTS. The Protoss opened 2 Stalkers into Nexus and 4 gateways. It was.. decent. It forced a lot of units out of the Zerg, but the transition for the Protoss is not all that strong. I think the biggest reason it didn't really work is due to the speed timing on the Zerglings - it caught an entire warp-in and pushed the Protoss back to their base.

So, long story short, it requires a lot of good Stalker control, crisp timings and kind of relies on Zerg not being used to reacting properly. You shouldn't EXPECT it to do damage, because forcing units out by that point is fine, but if you kill drones it's a huge leg up. A transition into like 7-gate blink or even just a regular 7-gate all-in seemed pretty strong, even though that's not what the Protoss did. This Protoss was rank 14 GM in the beta, by the way.
Edited by BoZiMagnet on 1/28/2013 10:41 AM PST
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01/28/2013 08:23 AMPosted by wraithcube
but I'm not a fan of it because if a zerg expects it they can prevent it from doing almost any damage.


But not a lot of zerg( in my league) know about this build.

I saw this in action last night. My friend is a top 100 GM Zerg in both WoL and HoTS. The Protoss opened 2 Stalkers into Nexus and 4 gateways. It was.. decent. It forced a lot of units out of the Zerg, but the transition for the Protoss is not all that strong. I think the biggest reason it didn't really work is due to the speed timing on the Zerglings - it caught an entire warp-in and pushed the Protoss back to their base.

So, long story short, it requires a lot of good Stalker control, crisp timings and kind of relies on Zerg not being used to reacting properly. You shouldn't EXPECT it to do damage, because forcing units out by that point is fine, but if you kill drones it's a huge leg up. A transition into like 7-gate blink or even just a regular 7-gate all-in seemed pretty strong, even though that's not what the Protoss did. This Protoss was rank 14 GM in the beta, by the way.


Thank you for the response. However, what your opinion on transition into stargate/ denying the third?
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If the cybernetics core doesn't go down as soon as the gateway finishes its a FE. Plus gas timings.
my cyber will go down before nexus. I like said, open up like a pvt.

I had defend 6 pool and roaches all in with this build so far.


Your expo would be spotted at the 4min30 mark by an overlord though and the zerg will grab a third.
Walling off at the main would stop 6 pools and getting a cyber core early would stop roach rushes, but I don't understand the 4 gateways on 2 bases. Typically it would be 6 or 7 gateways, or 5-6 gateways and a robo.

It sounds like you're trying to trick the zerg into thinking you're going 4-gate, then expanding, then going into a very late 4-gate?
Edited by Graboid on 1/28/2013 2:50 PM PST
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Posts: 852
Your expo would be spotted at the 4min30 mark by an overlord though and the zerg will grab a third.
Walling off at the main would stop 6 pools and getting a cyber core early would stop roach rushes, but I don't understand the 4 gateways on 2 bases. Typically it would be 6 or 7 gateways, or 5-6 gateways and a robo.

First of all, I don't wall w/gate +cyber.
Anyway, aren't you curious why there nothing at the front and move your ovie(s) into the base???
Because that what 2 master zergs did.

I actually kill about 2-3 ovie before 6 min( insane supply block right there)

But let just say you spotted the expo, you prob play greedy, and suddenly a 4 gate come. What would you do?( haven't face a greedy z yet so I don't know what gonna happen, but I saw Nani did this build another day vs a greedy 3-base zergs and he basically just killed bunch of drones + nat hatch.)

The point is to make you(Zerg) produce lings instead of drones(or spines) + get late third. Hell, I don't even need to 4 gate, just a fake pressure would make you( zerg) overreact.

Now you said it typical to get 6-7 gates, but that push it for midgame, not at 6 min.

That the point of this build. Ofc, I'm still trying is out this build, so I'm not so sure how it'll turn out.

Edit: Sorry for my bad grammar => Still learning English

01/28/2013 02:50 PMPosted by Graboid
It sounds like you're trying to trick the zerg into thinking you're going 4-gate, then expanding, then going into a very late 4-gate?


It still hit at 5:30-40 min acutally.
Edited by ACIDCYCLONE on 1/28/2013 3:27 PM PST
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01/28/2013 08:23 AMPosted by wraithcube
I have seen what you are referring to. It can hit at an extremely awkward time for zergs. I've actually seen it win outright, but I'm not a fan of it because if a zerg expects it they can prevent it from doing almost any damage.


Its not so much the timing its that to play Zerg well you need to see what your opponent is doing then do the proper build to counter it. Those gate expands haven't really been popular in a long time so knowing the right build timings to adjust is just not common knowledge anymore. It then becomes easy to fall behind economically or completely miss when to build units and lose from over-drone.
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Posts: 735
Yes it's called the 4gate +1. It never outright wins. It's meant to shutdown the third, or deal stupid damage vs a mutaing player. It works but it isn't a definite thing. You have to follow it up with 16 min 3 collosus +2 8 gate blink stalker or something similar.

Though personally I like the immortal sentry all in better. It outright wins more and does infinitely more damage. It's preference. The meta game has adopted the immortal sentry all in though.
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dies to mass ling or ling roach
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01/27/2013 11:22 AMPosted by ACIDCYCLONE
The +1 attack 4-gate zealot pressure?

nono brother. Gateway Fe like the one you do vs terran

Personally I always get a 15 pool and if I see an early expansion I'll do a 7RR. Dunno if you would hold that off with a single gateway.

the thing is, you can't tell if I'm going to expand or all in cuz I open like a 4gate.


Pretty much every standard non-FE build opens like a 4 gate. At what point are you planning on ditching the 4-gate look? 2nd gas? Chrono nexus? Probes past 22? Less than 4 gates? That's pretty critical in knowing how to help
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Posts: 376
naniwa used this in gsl vs DRG. It will punish a zerg that blindly goes gasless 3 hatch.
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