StarCraft® II

Cheesing is a legit way of playing SC

Posts: 5,313
01/31/2013 05:55 PMPosted by mastershake
I get a lot more people like that. They will usually say "Learn to Play." I don't usually say GL HF. I will say Hello Good Luck. I got a person once tell me "Don't say good luck if you are going to cheese." I guess I shouldn't say anything at all. I had a game last week where I cannon rushed a Toss. The opponent said "Silver Really? How would this guy know I'm ranked silver? I guess he was thinking I should be much better than a bronze player. I don't think there is a big difference between Bronze and Silver. If you are ranked Silver you are still going to play a lot of bad players who can loose to cheese. If you are ranked Silver you are only a little better than a bronze ranked player.


I wouldn't say Silvers are just slightly better than Bronze, but they are only a little better than some Bronzies -- there is quite a difference in skill levels in some Bronze divisions.

I think the issue most people have with it is that they believe it's bad sportsmanship to do it. There is a difference between this and other sports, though -- bad sportsmanship in other sports is doing illegal stuff to gain an advantage even if you're caught, called "playing dirty." It also includes badmouthing. If something is legally part of the game, though, then it is not bad sportsmanship unless you're either pounding the opponent so hard while not killing them or playing easy with them after you've basically won. If cheese wasn't in the game, there would me no reason to scout early -- you would always know it would be some sort of macro build or an after-cheese-time all-in that you could scout later. It also has risk involved, and that's why few players do it. I find it ironic that people complain so much about how hard it is to defend against, but there is a reason why pros don't do it unless they think they can win with it! *AKA Cannon rushing IdrA*
I really think the pros would use it more if it was really as imba as some people say it is.
Edited by NinjaDuckBob on 2/1/2013 9:40 PM PST
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Posts: 5,313
02/02/2013 03:57 AMPosted by HEF
A lot of knuckle-heads try to use that terminology to give the impression that StarCraft II is sophisticated and complex when it's just a simple action game.

I wouldn't quite say that. You start with minerals and you end with someone winning, but it's all about the process, which can sometimes get complex due to having to "out-process" the other player. However, I believe any legal process to get to the end result is legitimate, whether it works or not and no matter the risk involved.
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Posts: 5,313
Oh, NOW it's 'out-process"...!

:D

That's a hot one!

:)


Oh, you *blushes*
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Posts: 3,256
Title:
Cheesing is a legit way of playing SC
Or at least it SEEMS legit
Edited by EugeneTwo on 2/2/2013 9:40 AM PST
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Posts: 1,046
Winning is a legit way to play starcraft. If you can do something (within the rules/parameters of the game of course) to win, you do it. End of story. What people don't like is losing, when it is so clear what could have been done to counter (the cheese) their opponent. This isn't about sportsmanship. It is about winning and losing. We hate losing, and therefore hate losing quickly even more. Read "Playing to win."

Also I know some people "play for fun", but I don't know what that means. Look if you are laddering you are playing to win or at least you think you are. You want to see how you match up against other people. And in our society of "everyone's a winner", when you lose on the ladder, this seems like a slap in the face. Get over it. Play to win, don't be afraid to lose. Read "Playing to win" by Sirlin
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Posts: 63
01/29/2013 01:06 PMPosted by Drhorrible
Cheesing ticks people off because it exposes a flaw in their gameplay. If you scout cheese its chances for success drop like a rock so when you lose to cheese you either missed it (upsetting) or screwed up the defense (upsetting).


or it's sentry/immortal all in pvz......
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Posts: 413
02/07/2013 02:32 PMPosted by Anesthetic


or it's sentry/immortal all in pvz......


Immortal sentry all-in is not cheese.

All-ins dont have to be cheese, all cheese is all-in though.


7 pool zvp
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Posts: 3,332
Cheesing is a legit way to play and while I don't do it very often, I do throw it in now and again to keep opponent honest. Say for example if I see a toss being super greedy and going nexus first, I won't hesitate to go early pool and quick lings to counter it.

Even pros cheese from time to time, so anyone who believes that cheese isn't a "legit" way to play, they are saying the pros do not play legitimately.
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Posts: 6,903
02/07/2013 08:20 AMPosted by Anesthetic
That is a very sad way with zero honor to look at the game, I bet you think that your opponent pausing and being afk for 5 minutes and you winning in the meantime is also a legit win.


Why would that be the case? There is quite a difference between using whatever you can to win while playing against another player and playing against someone who isn't actually playing. 'Cheese' is just a sequence of moves on the board that some people have seen fit to call illegitimate without justification. The mentality that cheese is illegitimate just makes people weaker to it-- which encourages there to be more cheese. Now there is a metagame for you. The only way to gain an edge is to accept that cheese is a legit way to play.
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Posts: 3,332
02/07/2013 02:32 PMPosted by Anesthetic
All-ins dont have to be cheese, all cheese is all-in though.


Not necessarily. It depends on whether the cheese is shut down completely, doing no damage at all, or whether it was somewhat successful in doing damage but didn't win the game outright.

If the cheese did enough damage to at least put the players on even footing, then it wasn't an all-in.
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Posts: 5,712
02/07/2013 03:04 PMPosted by WhitePointer
if I see a toss being super greedy and going nexus first, I won't hesitate to go early pool and quick lings to counter it.


So you go early pool all day erry day in ZvP? Nexus first is the most common opener in PvZ.
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Posts: 413
02/07/2013 03:12 PMPosted by Anesthetic
This is pretty all-in, a lot of different variations on ladder of the FFE, if you face an inbase forge with this build then you will be far far behind, same for gateway expands.


ZvP often normalizes after a 7 pool. Happens all the time in gsl
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Posts: 1,173
ZvP often normalizes after a 7 pool. Happens all the time in gsl


thats because sddddddddd is op and makes 6-9 pool almost not even a cheese anymore kinda sad really. I wouldn't mind zergs requiring to make 2 overlords (u start with 1) a requirement before pool to remove pre 10 pools from the game; terran and protoss require depot and pylon before getting their unit producing structure why shouldn't zerg require the same?

Could lower the price of spawning pool to 150 + drone if you do this as well pretty sure they only made pool 200+drone cost to delay 6-9pool considering even a roach warren is cheaper than a spawning pool.
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Posts: 1,046
02/07/2013 08:20 AMPosted by Anesthetic
Winning is a legit way to play starcraft. If you can do something (within the rules/parameters of the game of course) to win, you do it. End of story.


That is a very sad way with zero honor to look at the game, I bet you think that your opponent pausing and being afk for 5 minutes and you winning in the meantime is also a legit win.

This is OK when you are trying to get GM, or trying to beat an opponent that you really hate, or trying to win money. But when playing friendly matches/regular ladder...


OK so pausing to try and win is cheap, wrong and cheating and also something that is outside the game. Within the game, different builds are all ok, different strategies are all ok. And this is ok anytime you play not just for those trying to get to GM. And why wouldn't be ok for anyone who plays??

Zero honor really? How can you judge that. When did honor become something measurable. To me it would be dishonorable to not play to win (speaking of laddering). You should read Sirlin's playing to win, honor is some made up rule you play by I guess. It's not within the parameters of the game. Does honor mean you let your opponent know when and where you are going to attack?? What defines honor within the game anyway?
Edited by Tura on 2/10/2013 8:39 AM PST
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Posts: 1,040
*Reads thread meticulously.*

...
I like Pepper Jack!
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