StarCraft® II

Tips for improvement

Posts: 29
Hello Protoss players while I haven't played StarCraft II for that long (only a bronze) I was hoping if you could tell me how to improve my play style. So far I have enjoyed Protoss the most and would like some tips this is a replay that I did recently, I won but I feel that I could have done better. Thanks.

http://drop.sc/300051
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Posts: 216
Just general tips:

-I suggest that you learn how to forge fast expand in PvZ.
-If you're staying on one base, you normally want to start your cyber core as soon as your gateway finishes, and start researching warp gate asap. Using warp gates is much better than using normal gateways.
-Expand. You can't play such long games and just stay on one base. You won, because he also expanded quite late, but still, you'd be better off expanding (you had plenty of money to do that). As a general outline, you should start thinking about expanding when your mineral line starts to get saturated at around ~16 workers (you should never stop making probes).
-You got too much production for one base. In general, a one base protoss can only support 4 production facilities; be it four warpgates, 3 warpgates and a robo, or whatever. You should start adding additional production facilities after you've expanded.
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Posts: 29
Thank you, what is a good site to learn strategies like the one suggested?
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Posts: 1,367
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Portal:Protoss_Strategy
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Posts: 29
So I've followed your advice and I think I'm doing better, here is my latest game

http://drop.sc/301386

Tell me if their is any thing else I can do.

Thanks for all the help already guys!
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Posts: 216
-I suggest that you learn one build per matchup.
*Forge fast expand is good against Zerg.
*Against Terran the most common thing to do is 1 gate FE, although some sort of 2 gate robo expand would work for you as well and keep you safe from most of the crazy shaenanigans people throw at you at the lower leagues.
*Against protoss I would suggest you to do a 3 gate robo into an expansion.
*As Erpman said, you can look at this builds here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Portal:Protoss_Strategy. Check MC's 1 gate FE (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MC%27s_1_Gate_FE_(vs._Terran)), and, if you find yourself losing too much with this, just throw down a second gateway and a robotics facility before expanding (this is against terran).

-Not only builds are important, but learning what are the best army compositions against every race is essential as well. Against terran, you either open with collosi or templar (for storm and archons), and, at the end, just get both of them (this is assuming he goes bio, which is the most common composition from terran players). It is good that you went chargelots, and added immortals against the siege tanks, but the stalkers aren't very good for fighting and some archons/collosi would have been a great adition to your army.

-I see you've learnt how to expand. That's good, but doing it only once in the entire game is not enough. The optimal is to have 3 bases always gathering resources, although I think it will be enough of a challenge for you to keep 2 bases operational at all times. That means, you have to keep expanding when your previous bases start running low on resources. Always try to have at least two bases active at all times.

-In my previous response, I told you you had too much production for one base. You made the same mistake again. You cannot afford 5 gateways worth of production plus upgrades with a one base economy. The maximum amount of gateways you can afford on a single base is 4, and you normally get less than that if you're planning on expanding. You should be adding all of that additional production after expanding.

Some of this stuff is kinda specific, so feel free to ask questions if you don't understand what I meant at some point during my response.
Edited by Deckard on 2/1/2013 7:40 PM PST
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Posts: 29
Thanks for the info

-I suggest that you learn one build per matchup.
*Forge fast expand is good against Zerg.
*Against Terran the most common thing to do is 1 gate FE, although some sort of 2 gate robo expand would work for you as well and keep you safe from most of the crazy shaenanigans people throw at you at the lower leagues.
*Against protoss I would suggest you to do a 3 gate robo into an expansion.
*As Erpman said, you can look at this builds here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Portal:Protoss_Strategy. Check MC's 1 gate FE (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MC%27s_1_Gate_FE_(vs._Terran)), and, if you find yourself losing too much with this, just throw down a second gateway and a robotics facility before expanding (this is against terran).


I will look more at this site

02/01/2013 07:35 PMPosted by Deckard
-Not only builds are important, but learning what are the best army compositions against every race is essential as well. Against terran, you either open with collosi or templar (for storm and archons), and, at the end, just get both of them (this is assuming he goes bio, which is the most common composition from terran players). It is good that you went chargelots, and added immortals against the siege tanks, but the stalkers aren't very good for fighting and some archons/collosi would have been a great adition to your army.


Thanks, I didn't go Collosi because in every other game my opponent went heavy air (bad luck I guess) and I will start using Archons

02/01/2013 07:35 PMPosted by Deckard
-I see you've learnt how to expand. That's good, but doing it only once in the entire game is not enough. The optimal is to have 3 bases always gathering resources, although I think it will be enough of a challenge for you to keep 2 bases operational at all times. That means, you have to keep expanding when your previous bases start running low on resources. Always try to have at least two bases active at all times.


I was planning to expand to a third but I was afraid that his siege tanks would have annihilated it

-In my previous response, I told you you had too much production for one base. You made the same mistake again. You cannot afford 5 gateways worth of production plus upgrades with a one base economy. The maximum amount of gateways you can afford on a single base is 4, and you normally get less than that if you're planning on expanding. You should be adding all of that additional production after expanding.


I don't really understand this one how is it a bad thing? I figured the more the merrier since I could summon more Zealots/Stalkers in case of an attack can you be more specific on how this is detrimental towards my economy? thanks (and to be honest in the original post I thought you meant that the buildings made my base to crowded LOL)
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Posts: 216
I don't really understand this one how is it a bad thing? I figured the more the merrier since I could summon more Zealots/Stalkers in case of an attack can you be more specific on how this is detrimental towards my economy? thanks (and to be honest in the original post I thought you meant that the buildings made my base to crowded LOL)


The thing is, you cant warp in more Zealots/Stalkers if you don't have the necessary economy. If you're constantly warping in units from your 5 gateways, you're going to notice that there's always 1 or 2 gateways off cooldown, simply because you don't gather enough resources with a one base economy to keep producing units out of so many production buildings. It is better to save the money from those gateways, expand earlier, and add those gateways later on. It is important to have a lot of production, as you said, but having too much ends up being a waste of resources.

I was planning to expand to a third but I was afraid that his siege tanks would have annihilated it


Protosses in general always expand after their opponent. You don't need to keep expanding if you don't see they have expanded yet, but as soon as you see them take their third/fourth, you should start considering expanding yourself.

I will look more at this site


In general, this section of liquipedia is a bit out dated. The builds I suggested are not, but most of them are. They would still provide a solid foundation for your play until you learn more sofisticated builds though. However, if you ever want to learn new strategies, you should check the strategy forum of teamliquid at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=34. Most of the information there is difficult to gather, but if you look around, you may find useful guides. Most of the information there is more advanced though, so you may not understand all of it at first.

Also, you should check out the Protoss Help Me thread of the teamliquid strategy forum at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251528. It has a little FAQ with general openings and how to react to certain things, and you can always ask questions there if you have any. In general, the feedback you get there is superior than the one you can get here, at the battle.net forums.
Edited by Deckard on 2/1/2013 8:14 PM PST
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Posts: 29
Thank you for all your help Deckard
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Posts: 29
Sorry if this is getting annoying, but I think I'm doing a good job following Deckard's tips. I think the tips have been very helpful I just won 3 games in a row! (all as Protoss of coarse) This is my latest game and I want to know if I'm doing anything wrong still (I didn't try any particular build)

http://drop.sc/301728

I have also been looking at the websites suggested. as usual thanks for all your help guys
Edited by Tyber on 2/2/2013 7:46 PM PST
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Posts: 216
-I see you expanded relatively early to your natural, and then to a third. That's good, but it won't do you much good if you don't builds the probes necessary to saturate those bases. In general, you never want to stop building probes until you have about ~72. That's roughly 3 and a half bases completely saturated. Also, you should have expanded to a fourth (your main base was depleted and your natural was almost gone as well). You managed to win the game before running dry, but still, you should be thinking ahead, expanding before running out of resources.

-About never to stop producing probes, that's especially important during the early game. Every probe you stop producing hurts your income later in the game. I noticed you went 8 pylon and 10 gateway. To be able to do that, you need to stop making probes, which hurts a lot this early into the game. In general, if you're not doing a FFE against Zerg (which I suggested you to learn twice already, but whatever), you should be opening 9 pylon (2 chronoboosts on probes when the pylon ends), 13 gateway, 15 gas, 16 pylon, 17 cybercore. Then you deviate into whatever you may want to do.

-In my other responses I told you that you had too much production. Now, you had about the right number. I'd normally say it was too little, but your economy wasn't the best one either (you didn't have enough probes), so your production was in ok shape for the position you were in.
Now that's good, but the problem is you weren't using it enough. At certain points in the game you had huge amounts of resources in your bank, while your production facilities were idle. That is never a good thing (unless you're maxed out).
So, work on trying to maximize your economy (never stop expanding and building probes) and staying low on unspent resources.

-When you attack as protoss, you always want to build proxy pylons along with your attack, or bring a warp prism with you. That way, you can reinforce directly into the battle, making your attack that much stronger (this one is really easy, and it helps a LOT).
Edited by Deckard on 2/3/2013 8:47 PM PST
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Posts: 29
Thanks for the Help Deckard I finally attempted a FFE I just want to know if I did it right (ignore the AI I was only working on building placement)

http://drop.sc/302669
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Posts: 435
Last game, post #10. Your opponent started off well, with an expansion and good Creep spread. You had interesting map control, with wandering Stalkers and Observers. I was surprised your Zerg opponent got Crawling Claws for his Roaches so early, but you had Photon Cannons ready to Detect them.

You could have won at 16 minutes, when your opponent had 7 Hydralisks, 4 Queens, and a few Corruptors. He Teched hard, so he could get to Broodlords. You had spent several minutes building a large army and then went in twice and won. Vs Zerg it is import to recognize that they are poor against armor (like destructible rocks), they often have a pair of Overlords over your base before you have the anti-air, and they often cluster a ton of (vulnerable) Overlords at the far side of the screen.

The last Replay is about an attempt to go with a FFE. vs Zerg, and on a large map, that would work. But a FFE is usually a "partial wall-in" with a Zealot plugging the hole (with what Husky calls "Bob" the Zealot), and a "sheltered Cannon" close to the partial wall, and then a Sentry to drop Force Fields. What you need to work on is 1) you had 3 Zealots vs 11 Zerg; and 2) building placement. Warpgates can be placed anywhere and still work great. Warpgate walls are great for sheltering Cannons. I don't recommend using a Cybernetics Core in the wall unless it is a very small map, and you need something fast, because the Cybernetics Core is an Achilles Heel. When it is gone, you are crippled. Also, in your FFE, you had just a single (vulnerable) "Artosis Pylon" powering everything.

I prefer to use a pair of Gateways and Pylons at the top of a ramp, getting some Zealots, getting the Nexus expansion, getting Stalkers to scare the Overlords off the base, getting early harass, getting Tech and Production buildings, and then Upgrades. It is much better to have a larger army than the mere potential for a great army. Expect a battle before the 7 minute mark. Strike first. Contain (deny their 3rd base).
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