StarCraft® II

Help Bio in TvZ

Posts: 370
I'm practicing a faster style of MMM with emphasis on faster upgrades and allocating gas for more medivacs. Here is an example game from ladder (diamond league)

http://drop.sc/300670

Problems I noticed:

Sluggish macro - scv count was low on 2 base and did not pick up until I was on 3 bases
Poor initial multitasking - macro slipped while hellion marauder push went out
Slow upgrades - my upgrades were actually slightly behind Z and only caught on at 2/2 (3/3 a bit faster)
Little map control - could not step onto map until bio force strong enough at 16min push
Bad timings - hellion marauder pushed slowed by 1min and pre-hive push too slow as well
Slow 4th
No ghosts
Lack of drops

Advantages:

Cost efficiency of bio force and easy of barracks macro allowed me to constantly pump units while microing my army.

Traded VERY efficiently even against infestors

Faster re-max due to bio units produced faster.

Questions:

Are ghosts needed to deal with infestors? I feel like marauders with good ups can eat a few fungals with good medivac support and take out infestors

Is the 9min push necessary or should I do marinekings 2rax/3rax earlier 3rd opening instead?

Is there anything I can do about creep without mobile units like hellions/banshees to deny

Feel free to point our glaring errors in my game and offer tips and advice as I am open to all of them. This game is not an ideal demonstration of bio but jsut wanted to get feedback on how I can improve my bio play. Please, no troll and no BM.
Edited by ICEdKing on 1/30/2013 1:37 AM PST
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Posts: 4,486
this is the style i usually play vs Z and am struggling with it also. i do polts hellion marauder into mmm with a random tanks. when i am succesful i notice that my build is flawless and the hellion marauder hits at a great time. it is very important to not get too greedy with the first push i lose alot of games after i snipe the third then push into the natural and end up engaging poorly and losing my army and then just get mass linged. its important to pull back after you deny the third and poke into the natural unless it is clear you can do major damage.

also dropping is the only way this is really viable imo, you cant run around with a huge bio ball like you do vs toss. eventually one fungal lands and everything melts to banelings.

when dropping i dont really go for drones because its so easy for them to just drone for one cycle and be back to normal, i try to snipe hatcheries, queens, and tech strcutres. taking out an infestation pit or baneling nest and set up a real nice timing attack while they are rebuilding their tech.

just my experiences with this style although i am experimenting with changing to mech as it gets frustrating watching everything melt to banelings

also make sure conc shell is your first tech lab upgrade for the first push really helps prevent lling surrounds
Edited by raiderryan on 1/30/2013 10:34 AM PST
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Posts: 370
01/30/2013 10:31 AMPosted by raiderryan
just my experiences with this style although i am experimenting with changing to mech as it gets frustrating watching everything melt to banelings


Not sure if you watched the replay as game is kinda long but I find banelings the easiest to deal with using MMM. But duly noted on drops.
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Posts: 1,135
sitting a few units out side of his creep spread is usually enough to pick off a few tumors. Otherwise saving the occasional scan for creep clearing does wonders. Also I've found that denying 3rd and fourths does wonders.
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Posts: 121
try a 3 command center opening.. the extra mule and extra scv production will do incredible wonders for your economy.. you don't need to plant it at your 3rd but in your base is fine and just use it to macro.. you'll see that your bio army grows faster out of two bases..
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Posts: 212
10 Minutes
Your production cycles are not as smooth as they could be, (production is not constant).
Great stutter step to engage off creep. You could have micro'd the helions more but w/e.
With the lack of pressure the zerg did, you could have gotten the third a little faster.
11-13 minutes.
You could have been poking with the bio + helion force, at least to deny creep. With out tanks you have to be very active. The only unit he made after the engagement was lings, and you still had 5 helions with your mix (which is great that you kept them) you could have engaged and slaughtered his forces until he began some serious roach production.
Since you have the helions and so many medivacs, you can push out onto the map as long as you send the helions out in front. If you dont think you can handle the forces he sends, load up and come home/drop.

15-20
The push before broods was good, but only because your force was substantially larger. You ate a lot of fungals, so if you were fighting more upgraged roaches, or more bane heavy it would have killed you. A little splitting goes along way vs infestors. When you initially move out, you stim your entire army to kill 1 queen and some creep, was not necessary.

On 3 bases + mules you can afford 12 rax.

Next engagement was good, because the zerg player made really big mistakes.
You fought on creep.
He lost lots of infestors without using fungals.
His army SHOULD have crushed you but due to bad control you got a sick engagement.

21 minutes - 25
Your army is at half hp with 1 medivac out of 14 healing. If you don't stim your whole force to kill creep tumors this woudn't happen.
You take a fourth. 5th is floating for 5 minutes.
When you are maxed, GET MORE UPGRADES! Building armor, hi sec auto tracking. You could get cadeus reactor for the medis (pretty useless). Throw down cc's for mass orbital play so you can sack scvs.
Definetly needed more production late game. 10 rax is good when you are constantly spending, but you get maxed and the money just banks. Make another 5 rax, so if you loose your army(bad split, bane mines, good fungals) you can remax much faster.
If the zerg player does well, eventually you will need viking/raven PLUS your bio to handle brood/infestor.

28 minute enagement, you could have won easily if you had ghosts or vikings.

30 minute engagement secures your inevitable victory.

For your questions. Yes you need ghosts when playing bio for anti infestor. A game played vs no fungals is a won game. Check out FXO gumiho and the tvz he does, pure bio + ghost then viking raven+ bio late game. While mm can tank fungals with lots of medi's, the added dps of fungal ontop of broods + ling bane is way to much for bio to handle.

Unless you are doing a super greedy build, it is best to always try to do some damage, with a 9/10 minute push. otherwise the zerg will stomp you at 14 minutes with a maxed army which includes ultras/broods.

You can have a small squad of 3 marauders + 1medivac as anti creep patrol. 3 marauders 1 shot tumors and you can lift if they get in trouble.

I personally think helion marauder 9 minute push is better, because the comp is much stronger vs ling bane roach (which is the go to for most zergs if they sense earlier pressure)

Good game, you should be proud you KICKED A** for terrans everwhere.

Edit: Nice marine marauder micro to avoid banes.
Edited by WildWalrus on 1/30/2013 11:04 AM PST
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Posts: 370
Thanks everyone and esp WildWalrus for the feedback.

Is it better to emp or snipe on infestors? With the infestors being so fat and emp radius cut, I'm not sure if energy is worth it for emp as opposed to snipe.
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Posts: 212
Emp vs snipe all depends on what kind of time you have on your hands. If you are leading with your ghosts, and you see infestors snipe away! If you get engaged in the middle of the map and you have to split/stutter just emp because its way faster and it has a radius. You might still get hit with 1 or 2 fungals but thats better than getting your whole army fungaled.
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Posts: 10,506
Ya I tried pushing some marauders in my early marine mix incase of banelings and roaches and I think it made a difference.

I am still undecided whether I want to mech TvZ or go some form of bio/MMM/marine tank
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Posts: 370
Lets keep the discussion more on mmm style against zerg rather than the merit of Polts marauder hellion push at 9:15.
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