StarCraft® II

Phoenix harrassment of mineral line?

Posts: 1,031
Is this a viable strategy or just something I see bronze players doing in 4v4? Seems really micro intensive for bronze/silver/gold if it is.
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Totally viable in varying degrees for all matchups until they start putting stuff in the mineral line to deal with it.
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totally legit, especially PvP. Phoenix openers are quite common, even more so in HotS. Getting really fast phoenix in a 1v1 is useful because not only are you pretty much guaranteed 2 probe kills but you also are able to scout exactly what they have.
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what about an all in response to phoenix in pvp?
if you drop most of your energy on probes aren't you somewhat vulnerable to a gateway or robo all in?
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Posts: 2,107
what about an all in response to phoenix in pvp?
if you drop most of your energy on probes aren't you somewhat vulnerable to a gateway or robo all in?


All-in response to seeing phoenix in pvp is just asking to lose. They should have enough sentries to keep you perpetually forcefielded and you'll lose all your probes to phoenixes in the meantime.

1-base colossus or 4-gate warp prism are both instant losses as the colossus and warpprism get shot down by the phoenix.

If you go for blink you might have a shot, but they should have enough zealots and immortals to hold the attack. Especially with phoenixes lifting stalkers.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=350993

Phoenixes are also really good in pvz for picking off drones and queens.

PvT they are good for stopping drops and picking off medivacs. Unfortunately you tend to die outright when going for air in WOL. Phoenix are awesome in PvT HOTS though.
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Posts: 3,501
what about an all in response to phoenix in pvp?
if you drop most of your energy on probes aren't you somewhat vulnerable to a gateway or robo all in?

Phoenix is understood to be strong against Robo openings, but is slightly weak to 4 gate rushes compared to other builds, as well as zealot/archon archon timings. It should be a bit better in HOTS because of the loss of high-ground warp-in, reliance on ms-core, oracle detection against observers, and better non-phoenix air-to-ground units.
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Posts: 1,031
It seems like committing to a stargate and building 2-3 phoenixes is a really expensive way to kill two probes. It is nice to snipe a queen though.

Scouting is nice but a hallucinated phoenix is just fine and doesn't broadcast to them what you've built.
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Posts: 2,107
It seems like committing to a stargate and building 2-3 phoenixes is a really expensive way to kill two probes. It is nice to snipe a queen though.

Scouting is nice but a hallucinated phoenix is just fine and doesn't broadcast to them what you've built.


PvZ you go up to 5 or 6 phoenix for the purposes of sniping queens. And you get al ot more than 2-3 drones unless a zerg has near perfect defense. You should be able to grab upwards of 10.
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What's your APM wraith, mine's 35-40.
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Posts: 1,135
t seems like committing to a stargate and building 2-3 phoenixes is a really expensive way to kill two probes. It is nice to snipe a queen though.

Scouting is nice but a hallucinated phoenix is just fine and doesn't broadcast to them what you've built.


well for PvP, it really isn't just the killing 2 probes (and most likely more) and the scouting... although that's a plus.
When you make phoenix you dont just make 2/3 then stop, you make a fleet of at least 4~6. At these numbers they can 1shot a probe, and they can rapidly pick up and kill them too. Just a small number of 4~6 phoenix can decimate a mineral line with the simple G click G click G click G click and boom the mineral line's gone.
Now, you can argue this can easily be prevented by static defense and/or stalkers... well then they're also serving a purpose. If they make enough static defense to deny the super swift phoenix of their harrass ability, then they've already invested in cannons and thus you've indirectly done damage to their economy. If they leave stalkers near their mineral lines then they aren't able to move out without taking damage, thus ensuring that the enemy will sit in their base, allowing you to macro up safely.
Even once you get to a big deathball game a healthy number of phoenix can still deal with the enemy well. Went colossi? harrass them with phoenix to soften up before/during fight. fighting Voidrays? use phoenix to focus them down (although if the enemy has MASS voidrays you'd obviously need more phoenixes as well). A smaller engagement where their sentries/immortals are being very useful? lift dem bad boys up, I even go as far as using all phoenix to lift so that the units are disabled rather than actually damaging them (although idk if this is best way to do it)

summation; phoenix are awesome. use them.
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Posts: 120
what about an all in response to phoenix in pvp?
if you drop most of your energy on probes aren't you somewhat vulnerable to a gateway or robo all in?


Hey I go exclusively phoenix in PvP and I can tell you right now, all-in is not what you wanna do in phoenix opener. Especially if you opened robo.

The best response is to actually expand, get lots of sentries.
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Posts: 120
Now, you can argue this can easily be prevented by static defense and/or stalkers... well then they're also serving a purpose. If they make enough static defense to deny the super swift phoenix of their harrass ability, then they've already invested in cannons and thus you've indirectly done damage to their economy. If they leave stalkers near their mineral lines then they aren't able to move out without taking damage, thus ensuring that the enemy will sit in their base, allowing you to macro up safely.


Not sure if you guys tried going phoenix....canons are surprisingly bad against phoenix. I used to worry about them destroying my fleet, but they just don't do enough damage. Unless he has 3+ canons I don't even worry about it.

Same with stalkers...stalkers are surprisingly bad against phoenix. You really need a lot to defend your mineral line.
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Posts: 120
01/30/2013 04:07 PMPosted by wraithcube
If you go for blink you might have a shot, but they should have enough zealots and immortals to hold the attack. Especially with phoenixes lifting stalkers.


As I said, I do only phoenix openers in PvP and all of them are 1-base all in. I go 2 gate startgate, then robo and then 2 more gateways. After 4-5 phoenix, I start producing immortals like a mad-man and zealots. Almost no stalkers.

It is VERY effective. More likely than not, your opponent will go all stalkers. So you just destroy his army with immortal and zealot push.

This strategy also beats blink stalker all-in, or basically any kind of blink play. Simply because they will be too invested in stalkers who supposed to kill phoenix, but my main push is with immortals.
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01/31/2013 05:52 AMPosted by VELL
As I said, I do only phoenix openers in PvP and all of them are 1-base all in. I go 2 gate startgate, then robo and then 2 more gateways. After 4-5 phoenix, I start producing immortals like a mad-man and zealots. Almost no stalkers.


Oh I was referring to people doing a 1-base all-in because they saw you go phoenix which is usually bad. 3/4-gate phoenix all-ins are really really effective against almost anything :D

01/30/2013 10:45 PMPosted by Torimar
What's your APM wraith, mine's 35-40.


My APM when I started playing averaged around 50. It now averages between 90-100 without spamming actions at the beginning. Sometimes I struggle to maintain my phoenix control, but that's usually more a problem of me not paying attention than my apm not keeping up.

Phoenixes do require a bit higher apm, but because they give you something to click on your apm is usually higher by default when running phoenix builds. I was able to run them very successfully with only 60apm, so I wouldn't let your apm stop you. If you just keep using them you'll gradually get used to controlling them and your base at the same time.
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Posts: 2,691
100% legit even at the GM level. I've seen GM toss go phx vs terran even and win convincingly.

It's all about not over-making them and not losing them. If you can fly in, even with a turret, get 1 or 2 workers, and fly out with no losses, and do this over and over, it can really add up to a big advantage.

PvP : 3 phx to lift and 1 shot probe
PvZ : 4 phx to lift and 1 shot drone, but 5 to lift and kill queen in 1 lift
PvT : 4 phx to lift and 1 shot SCV
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Posts: 1,031
It's all about not over-making them and not losing them. ... and fly out with no losses...


And that's probably the things bronze/silver/gold players mess up on that I see. They either build nothing but phoenix, or they stick around until they get killed. I have a hunch the pros are very good at getting in and GETTING OUT!
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Posts: 15,672
It seems like committing to a stargate and building 2-3 phoenixes is a really expensive way to kill two probes. It is nice to snipe a queen though.
It's not, and you can kill up to 15 probes if you harass constantly, and you have the APM for it.

I typically like 3 Phoenix opening in PvP because in HOTS I can switch to VR if they go Immortal centric, or I can go pure Phoenix and transition to Tempests later.

In WOL, I open 3 Phoenix then do Parting's 12min 1-1-1 timing with Colossi/VR/Phoenix/Gate units and I usually win because the other guy is not sure how to prepare for it :P But, if they are good enough they will know how to defend the Phoenix harass and will have enough colossi in time to fight my army. However, that's the beauty of Phoenix openers: they double as harass + scouting while slowing down the tech and economy of your opponent, especially if you constantly nab gas probes.

PS:

Yeah, you need decent apm to use Phoenixes though. I usually am at 120-150, depending how I feel.
Edited by Zamara on 1/31/2013 1:14 PM PST
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01/31/2013 01:13 PMPosted by Zamara
3 Phoenix then do Parting's 12min 1-1-1 timing with Colossi/VR/Phoenix/Gate units


Zamara I swear you love stargate units too much. You must be in heaven in HOTS. I love phoenixes, but I just can't ever bring myself to build voids in a pvp if I can help it.
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01/31/2013 01:25 PMPosted by wraithcube
Zamara I swear you love stargate units too much. You must be in heaven in HOTS. I love phoenixes, but I just can't ever bring myself to build voids in a pvp if I can help it.
ROFL!!

Yeah, I've always loved Stargate tech even before HOTS, and whenever I saw I could use it, I'd never hesitate, and I carefuly scan every progame for anything that can strengthen my "fetish" for Stargate units haha!

HOTS is indeed heaven for me! I can make Carriers, Tempests, Void Rays, Oracles, Phoenixes... what's not to like?!! :D:D:D
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