StarCraft® II

Trying to help a friend and confused as hell

Posts: 4,926
Alright, a friend of mine started playing SC2 and naturally, he's not doing so well since he's just started.

Now this is what he told me:

He wants to play seriously, have fun, and he wants to one day be able to get to around my current skill level so we can do stuff like team games for fun and he can be skilled enough to have fun in 1v1.

I can respect that, in fact that's what I try to do when I play SC2.

However, he doesn't want to learn build orders, learn general Macro tips, nor even learn how to use his units...

Now: He wants to get better...but how can I help him when he won't try to follow those suggestions on how to GET better?

Let's just say that his Macro is terrible, and he wants to improve, yet he won't listen to general Macro advice ie: Constant probe production, expansion timings, when to build a Gateway...etc

All in all, what do I do?!
Edited by XSliceNDiceX on 2/11/2013 10:01 AM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,820
i had a friend that wants to get out of bronze and into silver, but he gets pissed off everytime he faces a silver on ladder because he "gets face rolled" and won't listen to reason.

so in my opinion,
let him be.
if you give him too much information before he realises the importance of those information, it'll overwhelm him hence deterring him from actually learning.
when he reach a wall in his play, then those information would be of more needed and listened too.
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,926
02/11/2013 10:06 AMPosted by SunRise
if you give him too much information before he realises the importance of those information, it'll overwhelm him hence deterring him from actually learning.


That actually makes sense thanks.

Guess its time to see if he rages though.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,794
f you give him too much information before he realises the importance of those information, it'll overwhelm him hence deterring him from actually learning.
when he reach a wall in his play, then those information would be of more needed and listened too.
Reply Quote
Posts: 22,923
also, if he doesnt want to take direct advice, explain to him how to examine his replays for weaknesses in his play.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,938
Having him play the campaign may inadvertently teach him some of those skills he wants to avoid, but if he's not interested in that either just give him the simple instructions everyone gets when they have no idea how to play:

1) Don't be Zerg. 2)Don't get supply blocked. 3)Keep building SCVs/Probes.

Tell him he should keep track of 2 and 3 first and foremost, then just let him ladder and do whatever he wants. He'll get better at those 2 things and will probably ask you specifically what to do when he gets beat by specific unit compositions or build orders enough, and that's when he'll be ready to absorb more information from you.
Edited by Gigan on 2/11/2013 12:29 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,912
Alright, a friend of mine started playing SC2 and naturally, he's not doing so well since he's just started.

Now this is what he told me:

He wants to play seriously, have fun, and he wants to one day be able to get to around my current skill level so we can do stuff like team games for fun and he can be skilled enough to have fun in 1v1.

I can respect that, in fact that's what I try to do when I play SC2.

However, he doesn't want to learn build orders, learn general Macro tips, nor even learn how to use his units...

Now: He wants to get better...but how can I help him when he won't try to follow those suggestions on how to GET better?

Let's just say that his Macro is terrible, and he wants to improve, yet he won't listen to general Macro advice ie: Constant probe production, expansion timings, when to build a Gateway...etc

All in all, what do I do?!


He has to be willing to learn if he wants to become good. There is no way around it. It's the same with any RTS. If you are unwilling to take the time to learn the race you are playing, you are not going to improve.
Reply Quote
MVP - StarCraft
Posts: 24,117
However, he doesn't want to learn build orders, learn general Macro tips, nor even learn how to use his units...

Now: He wants to get better...but how can I help him when he won't try to follow those suggestions on how to GET better?

You can lead a horse to water... In short, you can't. Not with his current decisions.
Reply Quote
Posts: 366
Trying to get better is hard work. If he doesn't want to get better at SC2 multiplayer then just play custom games together. In my experience some people can't be reasoned with. They have to come to the conclusion themselves and no amount or logic or reason will get them there.
Edited by SirCharlesII on 2/11/2013 1:23 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,755
Just tell him to play a lot for now, that's probably the most important thing when you are starting out. Sooner or later he will realize he needs help and seek it out somewhere (maybe). Pride is a funny thing.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,108
Honestly, if they are stubborn about what they are doing I think the best way to convince them is simply demonstrate to them why what they are doing is bad. For this to work you have to have somebody willing to play lots games in a row that they will lose (which is going to be tough)

Build orders got to be the way they are through progression of the metagame. New players shown a build order won't understand what is good or bad about it. They will almost always start off just doing something on 1 base and have a metagame sense of how the game was at release before anything was figured out.

Now why I suggest lots of games of them losing? Play them 1v1 all-inning them every game until they learn to defend it. Then progress to the next set of timings/all-ins. Cheese/all-ins are the best way to learn the extremes of what you can and can't get away with.

I'll use PvT as an example. Say you want to teach a protoss player a 1-gate expand into 2-base colossus.

Start off just doing proxy 2-gates till they learn they need to build units early on. Learning cheese is a legitimate strategy and knowing how to scout and defend it is important.
Once they are building units early that's all you want. Even if they can't quite defend your proxy 2-gate as long as they know to get stuff early that's enough.
Start doing a 3-rax all-in. Stop the game if your attack fails. They don't need to worry about dealing with people transitioning out of all-ins.

This will teach them bad habits of being overly defensive but for now that is good.

Once they defend that switch to a 2-rax pressure expand. And follow up with a 2-base all-in. This will be their first taste of dealing with a larger economy opponent. It will force them to finally start to question whether they should just defend and counter attack or expand and defend. Once they get the idea of doing 1 of the 2 (doesn't matter which one, but you can suggest they try both) is when you finally switch into a more standard game.

Start doing CC first or a gasless expand. As all you've done is all-in them or done pressure expands, this will completely throw them for a loop. Follow it up either with a stim timing push or a stim/medivac timing push. Straightforward attacks only. No drops or harassment.

Now at this point your timing attack should completely crush them. They will be confused and baffled and probably still running a 3-gate or 3-gate robo expand. Now when looking at the game they will be forced with the hard choice of either trying to all-in early or trying to expand instead of being defensive on 1 base.

Challenge them to try and break your gasless expand in any way they can. Once they find out they can't kill you for being greedy it will force them to play greedier in response.

Once they finally try to play greedy enough to defend your attack switch back to doing a 3-rax all-ins.

This should leave them in the awkward position of either choosing to play greedy and die to an all-in or to play safe and lose to a gasless expand. At this point the matchup will feel completely like a coin flip based on what each side chooses.

When they reach this stage is when you can introduce a 1-gate expand build. You can demonstrate how it can hold that 3-rax all-in, and also still be greedy enough to compete with a gasless expand.

At this point you can introduce scouting, because now they are used to seeing the different attacks and just need to learn how to predict them. That's when you can start to introduce variety and adjustments in builds. Things like expand before core or the difference between 3 gates before robo or robo before extra gates. After that you can work with them more variety for choices between robo or templar tech.

Eventually you'll reach a point where they can defend both the one and 2-gate all-ins. That's when you can introduce harassment and when to take a 3rd base.

Along the way you can add in little tidbits about what you are doing to be safe from all-ins that they could be doing to force them to think about when they could attack you. If they are interested teach them the all-ins as it's important for them to know how to 4-gate, immortal bust etc. Run a greedy build that lets their all-in crush you, then play again and show them an adjustment you made to be able to defend it.

Don't teach them a build order. Teach them the history of the build through all-ins and why the build is the way it is.

You can do something similar for pvz. Just do 14/14 speedling all-ins till they learn to FFE and then make sure they can defend baneling busts, ling all-ins, 7rr, and roach/ling all-ins.

Macro games are earned through both players having enough respect for the other that they don't believe they will lose to any given allin.
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,486
It's hard to get better disregarding macro and build orders. Hell flounder in bronze or whatever for awhile and either use the internet to learn or hell stop playing. Maybe he'll be the anomaly and find some loophole godly strategy but I doubt it, WOL meta is pretty stabilized
Reply Quote
Posts: 380
Pro Tips on Winning in Starcraft II.

1) Choose Protoss (A-move race)
2) Find a super cheesy build that will get you to Masters (Bonus: Use BM for extra hilarity.)
3) ???
4) Profit!!!
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,493
Hes someone who want to be a rock star but dosent want to learn an instrument or sing. it can be done but.. boobs dont help you that much in sc2.
Reply Quote
Posts: 332
02/11/2013 10:01 AMPosted by XSliceNDiceX
He wants to play seriously, have fun, and he wants to one day be able to get to around my current skill level


I am a musician. I don't mean I know a little guitar or piano. I am a professional, get-paid-to-play musician.

It's a common occurence for a friend to tell me they want to learn an instrument, or to get better at it. They often ask me for advice in this. Just like your friend and SC2, they wish they could play seriously, have fun, and be around my skill level.

My general advice to them is always the same. You don't play to get better; you practice to get better.

Your friend doesn't want to practice because of pride and, quite simply, because practicing isn't fun. It pushes you outside of your comfort zone and takes real effort. But we practice the things we love so we can be better at them, and thus have more fun with them. To play seriously, have fun, and be at a higher skill level.

When your friend realizes that this is also true of SC2, he'll go one of two ways. Either he'll be content sitting in his room playing "Smoke on the Water", or he'll commit the time and energy required to actually improve so that he can play on the stage. Er, metaphorically.
Reply Quote
Posts: 453
dump him for better friends imo
Reply Quote
Posts: 67
Just make sure your freind doesnt become afraid to 1v1 ladder. In time he will come around. Also tell him he should learn to macro. You can easily get to platinum off macro alone. Getting to the higher leagues requires way more skill both marco and micro. They are also able to scout and transition builds to fit what they find off their game knowledge. Basically diamond and up requires knowledge of the game. You got to be willing to put in that time. All my opinon though.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,766
honestly, you just have to rage at him. Tell him he will be forever in bronze league if he does not listen to what you have to tell him. It's not being mean, it's true.
Reply Quote
Posts: 29
one thing you can do is have him watch some casters like day 9 on tuesdays or nooby tuesday or some force from back in the day. he gives some good basic strats for new people to learn. thats how i started learning watching pro's and others play and that gave me ideas and i saw when macro was no good they tend to lose. also gave me ideas what to try in my games.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]