StarCraft® II

Why Raynor reacts badly on Kerrigan?

Posts: 601
03/15/2013 02:39 PMPosted by izogfif
Raynor needed proof that Kerrigan was not the same old Queen of Blades, and he didn't get it until he overheard her conversation with Valerian.


Which one? I remember this dialog:

Valerian: I didn't ask you to spawn zerglings!
Kerrigan: That's the problem with zergs: they don't always do what you want.

Shouldn't this be read as "You asked me not to create zerglings - I spawned zerglings = I don't do what you want = I am Zerg"?


The one where he asks her try and minimize civilian causalities and she comments that would make her task even more difficult but agrees. She also comments that he is not like his father.
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Posts: 3,088
No, when Kerrigan and Valerian were discussing the attack on Korhal after she became the Primal Queen of Blades: Valerian demanded that Kerrigan take pains to minimize collateral damage, and Kerrigan agreed to that demand.

Only then did Raynor realize that Kerrigan wasn't the old Queen of Blades anymore.
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Posts: 944
03/15/2013 02:39 PMPosted by izogfif
Raynor needed proof that Kerrigan was not the same old Queen of Blades, and he didn't get it until he overheard her conversation with Valerian.


Which one? I remember this dialog:

Valerian: I didn't ask you to spawn zerglings!
Kerrigan: That's the problem with zergs: they don't always do what you want.

Shouldn't this be read as "You asked me not to create zerglings - I spawned zerglings = I don't do what you want = I am Zerg"?


The one before the last mission. Valerian asks Kerrigan to avoid civilian areas, Kerrigan says no, Valerian presses her and she relents.

I would also say that she is not the Queen of Blades at the end. While her body is zerg, her mind is basically the same. The QoB personality she had in BW and WoL is gone.
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Posts: 15
Got it, thanks!
Edited by izogfif on 3/15/2013 2:52 PM PDT
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Posts: 20,737
Raynor: "What have you done?"

Kerrigan: "What I had to."

An extremely poor explanation of how and why she became the Queen of Blades a second time, and the sort of explanation that the old Queen of Blades might have given.

Raynor needed proof that Kerrigan was not the same old Queen of Blades, and he didn't get it until he overheard her conversation with Valerian.


I think Kerrigan was thinking "It makes no difference if I try to explain to Jim why I did what I did, he wouldn't listen to me."
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Posts: 20,737
Because he was already in compromised mental and physical state (he was probably tortured) and assumed that she reverted to her original Queen of Blades self because of the physical resemblance. Plus, she said exactly the wrong thing. So he simply freaked out. It happens.

In retrospect, she should have taken a Raynor's friend (Stetmann would be a logical choice as he is a medic) with her and let him go into the cell first.


All the other Raiders were uncomfortable with Kerrigan as it is, I don't think they'd even WANT to be near her in her new infested state.
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Posts: 601

In retrospect, she should have taken a Raynor's friend (Stetmann would be a logical choice as he is a medic) with her and let him go into the cell first.


All the other Raiders were uncomfortable with Kerrigan as it is, I don't think they'd even WANT to be near her in her new infested state.


Of course, non of them would want to be near her and Zerg, but I am sure everyone of Raynor crew would still agree if asked. Tosh even volunteered but she turned him down.
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All the other Raiders were uncomfortable with Kerrigan as it is, I don't think they'd even WANT to be near her in her new infested state.


Of course, non of them would want to be near her and Zerg, but I am sure everyone of Raynor crew would still agree if asked. Tosh even volunteered but she turned him down.


The fact still remains that the alliance between them still has to continue in LotV. Raynor wouldn't be stupid enough to let Kerrigan face Amon alone...
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Posts: 601


Of course, non of them would want to be near her and Zerg, but I am sure everyone of Raynor crew would still agree if asked. Tosh even volunteered but she turned him down.


The fact still remains that the alliance between them still has to continue in LotV. Raynor wouldn't be stupid enough to let Kerrigan face Amon alone...


Of course. And I would imagine both Protoss and Dominion will want to participate. I am not sure I understand what it has to do with this particular discussion.
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Posts: 20,737


The fact still remains that the alliance between them still has to continue in LotV. Raynor wouldn't be stupid enough to let Kerrigan face Amon alone...


Of course. And I would imagine both Protoss and Dominion will want to participate. I am not sure I understand what it has to do with this particular discussion.


Well it just proves that one way or another, Raynor and Kerrigan's relationship still has to be shown in LotV. Maybe it's not in a major way, but Kerrigan still needs to seek out knowledge to fight Amon.
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Posts: 15
Just found this in the ConversationStrings.txt from unpacking the file StarCraft II\Campaigns\SwarmStory.SC2Campaign\enUS.SC2Data:

zCutscene_Zerg10/Comment00001=Alternate Lines
zCutscene_Zerg10/Group00001=Zerg10
zCutscene_Zerg10/Group00002=Cutscene
zCutscene_Zerg10/Group00003=Exertions
zCutscene_Zerg10/Group00004=OBSOLETE
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00001=C'mon Matt. You can do it -- just remember to watch those corners. Work the numbers...
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00002=Sarah...?
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00003=No...
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00004=I had to get you out.
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00005=What have you done?
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00006=I found peace, Jim.
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00007=Tell that to Fenix! Tell it to the millions you butchered!
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00008=You swore you'd kill the Queen of Blades.
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00009=You were the only one who ever believed in me.
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00010=Do you still believe in me?
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00011=I love you, Jim. Never forget it.
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00012=We're done.
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00013=C'mon Matt. Watch those corners.
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00014=Remember your blind spot.
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00015=Look for the second ghost.
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00016=There's always a backup team.
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00017=Intervals. Keep the intervals.
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00018=Clear corners, move, clear corners.
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00019=Clear corners, move, watch your blind spot...
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00020=(screaming)
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00021=(screaming)
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00022=(screaming)
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00023=(coughing)
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00024=What have you done?
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00025=What I had to.
zCutscene_Zerg10/Line00026=(cough)


It looks like there was much more in that cutscene than what we saw in the production version...

By the way, there is more info about Sarah's feelings before Umojah facility is attacked by dominion forces:
zDebrief_Lab01/Comment00003=She watches him go, shakes her head and looks down -- she doesn't believe it.
zDebrief_Lab01/Comment00004=Raynor smiles at her, walks away.
zDebrief_Lab01/Group00001=OBSOLETE
zDebrief_Lab01/Group00002=ALTS
zDebrief_Lab01/Group00003=Lab01 Debrief
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00009=I'm so sorry Jim. For all of it.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00032=You sure made a mess down there, Sarah. And I ain't real comfortable with you controlling them zerg.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00042=She's gone forever. I know it. Maybe when it's all said and done, we'll get that new start.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00045=I wish it was that simple. Look, I don't remember everything I've done, but I do know I can't outrun my past.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00046=What are you getting at, darlin'?
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00047=Your friend, Tychus. They told me you had to shoot him.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00048=I made my choice.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00050=I don't like it either, but Valerian needed to be taught a lesson.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00051=Forget him. We've been here too long with the Dominion looking for us. We got to get out and start over.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00052=You don't have to -- we're leaving now. I'll suit up and meet you back here in an hour.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00053=Wasn't you, Sarah. I swore I'd kill the Queen of Blades, and maybe in a way, I did.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00054=It's not that simple. The Queen of Blades... was me, even when she wasn't. I can't explain.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00055=Yeah. Maybe we can really get that new start.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00056=What's my line again?
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00057=I have a history with the zerg, Jim.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00058=You made a mess down there, Sarah.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00059=Starting to regret bringing me back?
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00060=He made his choice. I made mine.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00065=That wasn't you, Sarah. Leave the past behind, and let's focus on gettin' out of here. I'll suit up and meet you here in an hour.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00066=Okay. That sounds... good.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00067=Never.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00068=I heard about what happened with your friend, Tychus. I'm sorry.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00069=Maybe you should have let him kill me. I slaughtered millions as the Queen of Blades...


It also looks like canonical way of walkthrough is to kill Narud first, then go to rescue Jim Raynor since lines with Narud cutscene dialog are labeled as "zCutscene_Zerg09".
Edited by izogfif on 3/16/2013 5:06 PM PDT
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Posts: 23
03/15/2013 02:39 PMPosted by izogfif
Raynor needed proof that Kerrigan was not the same old Queen of Blades, and he didn't get it until he overheard her conversation with Valerian.


Which one? I remember this dialog:

Valerian: I didn't ask you to spawn zerglings!
Kerrigan: That's the problem with zergs: they don't always do what you want.

Shouldn't this be read as "You asked me not to create zerglings - I spawned zerglings = I don't do what you want = I am Zerg"?


Kerrigan did that to show Valerian that he could not contain or control the zerg without dire ramifications.

And Kerrigan became the Primal Queen of Blades For a few reasons.

1) Kerrigan wanted to be zerg but she Also Loved Jim, it was a tearing of her inner self. And Honestly she needed to be what she became.

2) Kerrigan knew from Prophecy that the only slimmer of hope of keeping the Swarm from Amon was to become the Primal Queen of Blades, thus securing the will of the Swarm.

3) Kerrigan Wanted revenge for the temporary knowledge of Raynor's supposed death, She wanted Mengsk to Scream in agony before death, and on a more Benevolent note Kerrigan knew Mengsk needed to be "Dethroned" for the Betterment of all species. Becoming the Primal Zerg was the only way to Dethrone that Son of a !@#$%.

4) Kerrigan Needed Purpose beyond the Fulfillment of Love between her and Raynor, Sub conscious fulfillment, it is mostly what drove her to become the queen of blades, Deep down She liked the Power and the Ability to radically Influence the future to her own set of new found Morals.

Raynor was Cold towards Kerrigan not because of the Torture or fractured mental state that torture renders you in, It was because for 4 years he hoped in the bottom of a bottle to see her human again, Fantasized about her being his while hating what she was. A bit of his love standards were impossible based off of wanting it for so long, I doubt she could have lived up to his expectations, Regardless Raynor was disgusted with her because he has extreme prejudice against the zerg for good reason.
Every time he sees the zerg, he sees those who killed Friends, who took his mate, Who killed Fenix and would have killed every last person in the Universe for their essence eventually. Raynor Didn't realize that the swarms Ulterior Motive was 100% dependent on its Leader, rather than the General Consensus, The Queen or King of blades or the Overmind's rule is supreme and Impossible to deny.
The Zerg had the Ability and Physical Dimension to control the Zerg on all their worlds.

Point being, Raynor would most likely never see past how the zerg were with the old Queen of Blades, Not to mention many of Kerrigans tactics were as brutal and were very similar to her old tactics.

In the End though, When Raynor recognized that her Soul and Spirit were still the same as it was with her human self, He looked past that and chose to love her in any form, obviously you can tell this from the Final Cut Scene.
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Posts: 20,737
06/25/2013 09:47 AMPosted by AOTemplar


Which one? I remember this dialog:

Valerian: I didn't ask you to spawn zerglings!
Kerrigan: That's the problem with zergs: they don't always do what you want.

Shouldn't this be read as "You asked me not to create zerglings - I spawned zerglings = I don't do what you want = I am Zerg"?


Kerrigan did that to show Valerian that he could not contain or control the zerg without dire ramifications.

And Kerrigan became the Primal Queen of Blades For a few reasons.

1) Kerrigan wanted to be zerg but she Also Loved Jim, it was a tearing of her inner self. And Honestly she needed to be what she became.

2) Kerrigan knew from Prophecy that the only slimmer of hope of keeping the Swarm from Amon was to become the Primal Queen of Blades, thus securing the will of the Swarm.

3) Kerrigan Wanted revenge for the temporary knowledge of Raynor's supposed death, She wanted Mengsk to Scream in agony before death, and on a more Benevolent note Kerrigan knew Mengsk needed to be "Dethroned" for the Betterment of all species. Becoming the Primal Zerg was the only way to Dethrone that Son of a !@#$%.

4) Kerrigan Needed Purpose beyond the Fulfillment of Love between her and Raynor, Sub conscious fulfillment, it is mostly what drove her to become the queen of blades, Deep down She liked the Power and the Ability to radically Influence the future to her own set of new found Morals.

Raynor was Cold towards Kerrigan not because of the Torture or fractured mental state that torture renders you in, It was because for 4 years he hoped in the bottom of a bottle to see her human again, Fantasized about her being his while hating what she was. A bit of his love standards were impossible based off of wanting it for so long, I doubt she could have lived up to his expectations, Regardless Raynor was disgusted with her because he has extreme prejudice against the zerg for good reason.
Every time he sees the zerg, he sees those who killed Friends, who took his mate, Who killed Fenix and would have killed every last person in the Universe for their essence eventually. Raynor Didn't realize that the swarms Ulterior Motive was 100% dependent on its Leader, rather than the General Consensus, The Queen or King of blades or the Overmind's rule is supreme and Impossible to deny.
The Zerg had the Ability and Physical Dimension to control the Zerg on all their worlds.

Point being, Raynor would most likely never see past how the zerg were with the old Queen of Blades, Not to mention many of Kerrigans tactics were as brutal and were very similar to her old tactics.

In the End though, When Raynor recognized that her Soul and Spirit were still the same as it was with her human self, He looked past that and chose to love her in any form, obviously you can tell this from the Final Cut Scene.


The only problem now is does Kerrigan still see hope for the two of them in the future. Because the epilogue made it sound like going to fight Amon was a suicide mission.
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Posts: 20,737
Though your #1 and #4 are off. She wanted to have nothing to do with the Zerg at the beginning of HotS, but the war with Mengsk left her with no choice (this was before she heard the announcement of Raynor's death).

The power she got from the Zerg wasn't exactly something she wanted. If you read the books, you'd know she never even wanted to be a ghost operative in the first place.
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Posts: 48
For #3:
I saw the 'What have you done?' response from Raynor seeing Kerrigan like that is because of his past experience. When Kerrigan was human, she was like the Kerrigan that Jim fell in love with. Her first time as the Queen of Blades, she was nothing like that, though she still retained memories. Her personality had changed to be the leader of the Zerg.

Because of that experience, Jim probably thought he was losing her again. So his 'What have you done?' was probably a way of saying, "Am I losing you again? After everything I went through to get you back? You're throwing it all away for the Zerg again?" He obviously doesn't realize what all transpired during the time he's been in captivity, and as a result, his first reaction doesn't take into account that Kerrigan turned like this to become much more powerful in order to be able to kill Mengsk for 'killing' Raynor.
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Posts: 20,737
For #3:
I saw the 'What have you done?' response from Raynor seeing Kerrigan like that is because of his past experience. When Kerrigan was human, she was like the Kerrigan that Jim fell in love with. Her first time as the Queen of Blades, she was nothing like that, though she still retained memories. Her personality had changed to be the leader of the Zerg.

Because of that experience, Jim probably thought he was losing her again. So his 'What have you done?' was probably a way of saying, "Am I losing you again? After everything I went through to get you back? You're throwing it all away for the Zerg again?" He obviously doesn't realize what all transpired during the time he's been in captivity, and as a result, his first reaction doesn't take into account that Kerrigan turned like this to become much more powerful in order to be able to kill Mengsk for 'killing' Raynor.


Yeah, and at that point, I don't think if Kerrigan tried to explain that she only did this because she thought he had died, Raynor would have listened.
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Posts: 137
Just found this in the ConversationStrings.txt from unpacking the file StarCraft II\Campaigns\SwarmStory.SC2Campaign\enUS.SC2Data:

It looks like there was much more in that cutscene than what we saw in the production version...

By the way, there is more info about Sarah's feelings before Umojah facility is attacked by dominion forces:
zDebrief_Lab01/Comment00003=She watches him go, shakes her head and looks down -- she doesn't believe it.
zDebrief_Lab01/Comment00004=Raynor smiles at her, walks away.
zDebrief_Lab01/Group00001=OBSOLETE
zDebrief_Lab01/Group00002=ALTS
zDebrief_Lab01/Group00003=Lab01 Debrief
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00009=I'm so sorry Jim. For all of it.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00032=You sure made a mess down there, Sarah. And I ain't real comfortable with you controlling them zerg.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00042=She's gone forever. I know it. Maybe when it's all said and done, we'll get that new start.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00045=I wish it was that simple. Look, I don't remember everything I've done, but I do know I can't outrun my past.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00046=What are you getting at, darlin'?
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00047=Your friend, Tychus. They told me you had to shoot him.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00048=I made my choice.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00050=I don't like it either, but Valerian needed to be taught a lesson.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00051=Forget him. We've been here too long with the Dominion looking for us. We got to get out and start over.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00052=You don't have to -- we're leaving now. I'll suit up and meet you back here in an hour.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00053=Wasn't you, Sarah. I swore I'd kill the Queen of Blades, and maybe in a way, I did.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00054=It's not that simple. The Queen of Blades... was me, even when she wasn't. I can't explain.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00055=Yeah. Maybe we can really get that new start.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00056=What's my line again?
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00057=I have a history with the zerg, Jim.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00058=You made a mess down there, Sarah.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00059=Starting to regret bringing me back?
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00060=He made his choice. I made mine.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00065=That wasn't you, Sarah. Leave the past behind, and let's focus on gettin' out of here. I'll suit up and meet you here in an hour.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00066=Okay. That sounds... good.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00067=Never.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00068=I heard about what happened with your friend, Tychus. I'm sorry.
zDebrief_Lab01/Line00069=Maybe you should have let him kill me. I slaughtered millions as the Queen of Blades...


It also looks like canonical way of walkthrough is to kill Narud first, then go to rescue Jim Raynor since lines with Narud cutscene dialog are labeled as "zCutscene_Zerg09".


Wow, nice find! They should have included the "Wasn't you, Sarah. I swore I'd kill the Queen of Blades, and maybe in a way, I did." line, it would've been a good way of explicitly addressing Raynor's promise from BW. It's been addressed implicitly, with Raynor believing that the QoB and Sarah are two different people, but that line would have been a nice way of explicitly addressing it as well. There's been so many missed opportunities in the writing- they have the ideas, as that line shows, but the execution just isn't quite as good as it could be. It's still great, and I still loved it, but with just a few tweaks here and there, and a few additions here and there, it could have been truly excellent.
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Posts: 20,737
Just found this in the ConversationStrings.txt from unpacking the file StarCraft II\Campaigns\SwarmStory.SC2Campaign\enUS.SC2Data:

It looks like there was much more in that cutscene than what we saw in the production version...

By the way, there is more info about Sarah's feelings before Umojah facility is attacked by dominion forces:


It also looks like canonical way of walkthrough is to kill Narud first, then go to rescue Jim Raynor since lines with Narud cutscene dialog are labeled as "zCutscene_Zerg09".


Wow, nice find! They should have included the "Wasn't you, Sarah. I swore I'd kill the Queen of Blades, and maybe in a way, I did." line, it would've been a good way of explicitly addressing Raynor's promise from BW. It's been addressed implicitly, with Raynor believing that the QoB and Sarah are two different people, but that line would have been a nice way of explicitly addressing it as well. There's been so many missed opportunities in the writing- they have the ideas, as that line shows, but the execution just isn't quite as good as it could be. It's still great, and I still loved it, but with just a few tweaks here and there, and a few additions here and there, it could have been truly excellent.


This makes me wonder what was the ORIGINAL Dialogue for the "Believe in Me" cutscene...
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Posts: 23


Kerrigan did that to show Valerian that he could not contain or control the zerg without dire ramifications.

And Kerrigan became the Primal Queen of Blades For a few reasons.

1) Kerrigan wanted to be zerg but she Also Loved Jim, it was a tearing of her inner self. And Honestly she needed to be what she became.

2) Kerrigan knew from Prophecy that the only slimmer of hope of keeping the Swarm from Amon was to become the Primal Queen of Blades, thus securing the will of the Swarm.

3) Kerrigan Wanted revenge for the temporary knowledge of Raynor's supposed death, She wanted Mengsk to Scream in agony before death, and on a more Benevolent note Kerrigan knew Mengsk needed to be "Dethroned" for the Betterment of all species. Becoming the Primal Zerg was the only way to Dethrone that Son of a !@#$%.

4) Kerrigan Needed Purpose beyond the Fulfillment of Love between her and Raynor, Sub conscious fulfillment, it is mostly what drove her to become the queen of blades, Deep down She liked the Power and the Ability to radically Influence the future to her own set of new found Morals.

Raynor was Cold towards Kerrigan not because of the Torture or fractured mental state that torture renders you in, It was because for 4 years he hoped in the bottom of a bottle to see her human again, Fantasized about her being his while hating what she was. A bit of his love standards were impossible based off of wanting it for so long, I doubt she could have lived up to his expectations, Regardless Raynor was disgusted with her because he has extreme prejudice against the zerg for good reason.
Every time he sees the zerg, he sees those who killed Friends, who took his mate, Who killed Fenix and would have killed every last person in the Universe for their essence eventually. Raynor Didn't realize that the swarms Ulterior Motive was 100% dependent on its Leader, rather than the General Consensus, The Queen or King of blades or the Overmind's rule is supreme and Impossible to deny.
The Zerg had the Ability and Physical Dimension to control the Zerg on all their worlds.

Point being, Raynor would most likely never see past how the zerg were with the old Queen of Blades, Not to mention many of Kerrigans tactics were as brutal and were very similar to her old tactics.

In the End though, When Raynor recognized that her Soul and Spirit were still the same as it was with her human self, He looked past that and chose to love her in any form, obviously you can tell this from the Final Cut Scene.


The only problem now is does Kerrigan still see hope for the two of them in the future. Because the epilogue made it sound like going to fight Amon was a suicide mission.


In All likelihood she is going to die, Jim will probably follow her out into the void to join her for the last battle, Amon, Jim, Kerrigan and Zeratul are all going to die.
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Posts: 23
I have not read the books, I might soon.
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