StarCraft® II

HotS thoughts

gogogogo
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Buffing harass option is always better than nerfing, not only it forces player to be more aggressive and thus increase the micro time (which is what makes an RTS fun). But it also generate more crowd appeal and make eSport more interesting to watch.

I really like the direction Hots tournament is heading. Some units that are still not used too often are:

Terran :
BC
Hellbat (hellion still used far more often)

Protoss :
Tempest

Zerg :
Swarm host
Hydra ( ZvZ is still muta vs muta and fungal is nerfed vs air so how about make this unit the replacement by making it 30% faster on creep)


never thought id see a barcode silver league
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Good work. Keep going that road!
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I honestly feel bad for blizzard devs. They have to decide whether to balance the game for top level korean play and deal with unbalances that occur at human levels of play, or balance for the master/gm level and cause problems at top pro level play.

One of the biggest problems seems to be a lot of aggressive strategies require much more effort to defend than it does to execute.

Let's take speedvac play. Rain was able to shut them down for the most part with perfect observer placement, army splits, and unit control. This is much harder to do than executing a doom drop. MC chose a different route by opening up stargate and either attempting to end the game before speedvacs were a problem or building phoenix to counter them later. For 99.9% of people the stargate is going to be the more consistent way of countering speedvacs.

Also it is hard to make balance decisions off of the extreme highest level of play considering these players are able to pull of plays that no other person on the planet could. Example - Life held a 3 Factory blue flame opening with pure speedlings and queens...that is beyond incredible.
Edited by Tyrant on 3/18/2013 12:13 PM PDT
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I honestly feel bad for blizzard devs. They have to decide whether to balance the game for top level korean play and deal with unbalances that occur at human levels of play, or balance for the master/gm level and cause problems at top pro level play.

One of the biggest problems seems to be a lot of aggressive strategies require much more effort to defend than it does to execute.

Let's take speedvac play. Rain was able to shut them down for the most part with perfect observer placement, army splits, and unit control. This is much harder to do than executing a doom drop. MC chose a different route by opening up stargate and either attempting to end the game before speedvacs were a problem or building phoenix to counter them later. For 99.9% of people the stargate is going to be the more consistent way of countering speedvacs.

Also it is hard to make balance decisions off of the extreme highest level of play considering these players are able to pull of plays that no other person on the planet could. Example - Life held a 3 Factory blue flame opening with pure speedlings and queens...that is beyond incredible.


he only held the 3 fact blue flame (if you're talking about him vs polt) because polt screwed that up TREMENDOUSLY

and i think actually the best way to beat mass drops is to just make cannons all game, and a lot of them. when i played vs MVP tails in the beta (got owned super hard, but it was cool cause i got to see good level protoss play first hand), over the course of a 40 min game he probably built 100 + photon cannons, and never had a maxed army. just made bases, cannons, high templar, collosus and moved around observers at 300 apm all game
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Hi David. Please consider buffing the other races when the need to make balance changes arises instead of nerfing Terran so that HotS doesn't become a boring game like WoL.
Edited by Magikarp on 3/18/2013 12:23 PM PDT
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I think that is a case of a strat working only because of one player having superior skill (no offense to you obviously he is a pro player). If two players are equal and Terran has more eco as he should have his thord base up faster there is now way a protoss can invest so many resources into cannons to prevent drops, which cuts into his army supply, and hold frontal aggression with a far superior number of bio units or at least be able to contain the protoss as he mass expands. I think it works because MVPtails tremendous skill allowed him to hold off a superior army with less units while building cannons to defend against drops. Just my 2 cents.
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I don't know what to say, Blizzard seems so ignorant. Of course aggressive play is fun to watch. The game is at it's best when a macro player has an equal chance against someone with a very well planned and executed all-in timing. Then it all comes down to scouting, micro, mindgames, ect... and of course don't forget maps.

At the start of WOL timing players dominated, and the game was boring because it was Marine-SCV all-in after Marine-SCV all-in. At the end of WOL it was boring because it was a turtlefest dominated by macro players, the first 10 minutes were literally a waste of time, and every game played out with the same basic compositions. Variety is what makes the game fun.

Blizzard needs to hit that balance. And while I hate to be the pessimist here, the awesome HOTS games we are watching are because the game hasn't been figured out. People wanted to play macro like in Wings, but timings were really strong, so we got variety, and it was fun! However, Photon Overcharge and Widow Mines threaten to make the game even more of a turtlefest than WOL is when the game is figured out. Note how Terran can't do any old Rax timings with Photon Overcharge. Look at how passive Protoss has to be in the mid game versus Terran due to Widow Mines and Speedvacs.

I'm calling it right now, once Protoss players learn to defend the mid-game pressure (or it gets nerfed if it can't be defended) then the game will be an epic turtlefest till lategame in PvT, and we'll be in an even worse position in PvT then we were at end of the WOL.

Hopefully Blizzard will head that off at the pass. The Widow Mine is too good. Photon Overcharge should be removed and replaced with a spell where the Nexus does damage to nearby enemy units that have shields, so Protoss can still fast expand.
Edited by BronzeKnee on 3/18/2013 12:32 PM PDT
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Let's take speedvac play. Rain was able to shut them down for the most part with perfect observer placement, army splits, and unit control. This is much harder to do than executing a doom drop. MC chose a different route by opening up stargate and either attempting to end the game before speedvacs were a problem or building phoenix to counter them later. For 99.9% of people the stargate is going to be the more consistent way of countering speedvacs.

Only a minority of the speedvac play involved merely sending a doom drop into the enemy base. Most of it was multipronged harassment that required considerable multitasking.
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THANK YOU. FREAKING THANK YOU. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW RELIVED I AM TO HEAR THIS.
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THANK YOU. FREAKING THANK YOU. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW RELIVED I AM TO HEAR THIS.
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Yay! :D
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Thank you for being reasonable about balance and not jumping to buff or nerf things so early into release. I know a lot of people come here and whine and there can be a lot of pressure but know that there are others that, while maybe not as vocal, appreciate your restraint and willingness to give the meta game time.
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For casual Zergs HotS is absolutely terrible at the moment. Widow Mines are way to strong and do not require any skill to use, whereas to be efficient vs them you have to have atleast 6-7 hours a day to dump into playing to have enough micro to deal with them. Oracles are also way, way, WAY too strong early game. An oracle+MC+2-3 zealots push is almost impossible to stop early game if you dont want to dump a bunch of resources into queens and spores and ling or roach. Just terrible.
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This is true, although shift queing multiple drops works suprisingly well in anything but the highest level. I was watching rootCatz stream upon release where he raced to rank#1 on 2/3 of the ladders and he was having a very hard time against lesser skilled terrans who would shift que multiple drops the whole game. I mean literally they didnt micro the drop it all as the units were obviously on a move attacking random !@#$.

It still takes more skill to defend in 3 places at once than it does to attack (not talking about flash style micro 3 attacks at once, that's just not human) but that is just the nature of Starcraft.
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lmfao it's just as hard for terran to micro against banelings as it is for zerg to micro against widowmines. You do not need to practice 6-7 hours a day to send small groups of lings first. Ling micro vs widowmines will be as standard as marine micro vs banelings in a month when more people get used to dealing with them.
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If you're gonna change the balance due to medivacs, can you just go the route of buffing dropping options for the other two races?

Like moving warp prism speed upgrade to cyber core?
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lmfao it's just as hard for terran to micro against banelings as it is for zerg to micro against widowmines. You do not need to practice 6-7 hours a day to send small groups of lings first. Ling micro vs widowmines will be as standard as marine micro vs banelings in a month when more people get used to dealing with them.

Run a group of lings first ? He has marine marauder on top of his 5 burrowed mines so when I send even 10 lings they die before the mines activate, but if I charge with everything he pulls back a little and the mines explode. You need unreal micro to make it somewhat efficient if you are the zerg.
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MVP - StarCraft
03/18/2013 09:03 AMPosted by Dayvie
- The super aggressive play is turning out to be really fun to watch.
Amen!

03/18/2013 09:03 AMPosted by Dayvie
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.

We're working on it.

- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.

Always awesome to see.

- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.

So far unclear. There are a few glaring issues, but I do think it would be wise to give the playership time to adjust. At least a month.

- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.

Probably the best way to look at it.

- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move.

People will continue to freak out anyways, but that's one of the things we do best. Makes the forums feel like home.

Strong post. +1

P.S. ^ for the life of me, I can't figure out why certain quotes show the proper color and label and others don't.
Edited by Doncroft on 3/18/2013 1:11 PM PDT
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