StarCraft® II

Best tvt build/opener currently?

Posts: 816
What do you think it is?

Btw is 1 rax FE into 3 rax still very good at masters+? im masters but I havn't play much HOTS yet.

It seems like if somebody openers all in or widow mines or just goes mech, there isnt much you can do.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,206
1 rax fe into 3 rax is for pros only

most korean builds involve:
2 gas after CC, or a 13/15 refinery (whichever timing you like) into 2 gas
factory at some point
reactor at some point the trend has been to get the reactor before starting the factory, but this makes you vulnerable to reaper play

non - FE builds still good:
banshee cloaking
7 marine 3 hellion 1 medivac attack
4 hellion drop into tank marine + vikings then a push (MKP)
2 hellion 2 widow mine drop into ??????
gas first non cloaking banshee, into stim and 3 barrack
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,143
I would say that Reaper openings have dominated the TvT matchup nowadays in HOTS. Because of their ridiculous speed, they can outrun Marines and get a ton of scouting information before Hellions or Mines are out on the field.

It leaves a lot of room for transitions too; just like the classic 1 Reaper FE from WoL, you can do a quick Stimpack follow-up or tech up to Factory/Starport tech. Since you know exactly what your opponent is doing, you can easily select the right tech to counter him and you end up way ahead. It doesn't matter if they're going 1 Rax FE or 1 basing you.

If your opponent opens 1 Rax FE, even with a double gas follow-up their Hellions aren't out until about 6 minutes or so. As you can imagine, you can be a huge annoyance and harass him for a quite a while thanks to the Combat Drugs.

Mech seems to be a lot stronger than Bio right now, but you can still win with Bio if you take advantage of your mobility and expand hard. It's really up to your personal preference and what you're comfortable with.
Edited by Axiom on 3/21/2013 1:40 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 816
1 rax fe into 3 rax is for pros only

most korean builds involve:
2 gas after CC, or a 13/15 refinery (whichever timing you like) into 2 gas
factory at some point
reactor at some point the trend has been to get the reactor before starting the factory, but this makes you vulnerable to reaper play

non - FE builds still good:
banshee cloaking
7 marine 3 hellion 1 medivac attack
4 hellion drop into tank marine + vikings then a push (MKP)
2 hellion 2 widow mine drop into ??????
gas first non cloaking banshee, into stim and 3 barrack


Mind telling me which video or replay I can find MKP doing that build.

What time does he gets his 2nd gas and expansion? does he go gas first?
Reply Quote
Posts: 816
I would say that Reaper openings have dominated the TvT matchup nowadays in HOTS. Because of their ridiculous speed, they can outrun Marines and get a ton of scouting information before Hellions or Mines are out on the field.

It leaves a lot of room for transitions too; just like the classic 1 Reaper FE from WoL, you can do a quick Stimpack follow-up or tech up to Factory/Starport tech. Since you know exactly what your opponent is doing, you can easily select the right tech to counter him and you end up way ahead. It doesn't matter if they're going 1 Rax FE or 1 basing you.

If your opponent opens 1 Rax FE, even with a double gas follow-up their Hellions aren't out until about 6 minutes or so. As you can imagine, you can be a huge annoyance and harass him for a quite a while thanks to the Combat Drugs.

Mech seems to be a lot stronger than Bio right now, but you can still win with Bio if you take advantage of your mobility and expand hard. It's really up to your personal preference and what you're comfortable with.


To be quite honest, I never really cared for reapers expand in TvT.
I prefer gasless expand

I only like reapers vs zerg.

1st, because I rather have 2 more marines instead of a reapers...I dont have problems scouting in TvT...I can defend pretty much everything. not necessarly with staying ahead but wont die to it.

also with reapers expand, I have later rax and reactors...and if reaper die and they attack me with hellions or smoenthing I have zero unitss cuz reactors are building

or if they push

thats why I dont like reapers expand tvt anymore

I can have a 8-10 marines lead by like 6-7 minutes compared to a reaper expand if I go gasless...and marines early game = everything tvt especially when stim etc is done in bio vs bio
Edited by llllllllllll on 3/21/2013 2:15 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,284
Any gas type expansion involving reapers, widow mines, or hellions or a combination of the three.
Reply Quote
Posts: 229
We are Terran, we have the most opener out of all three races. The "best" opener is to change your opener and experiment the strength / weakness of each, especially in TvT.

As for Korean TvT, most of the time they go for 1 base early aggression into expand.

Rreaper opening
hellion drop
cloak banshee
widow mine drop

Mix in any of these and defend against his aggression.

Into marine siege tank (siege up outside their natural)

I guess this is Terran version of zergling / Baneling before going into mid-game :D
Edited by llllllllllll on 3/21/2013 3:48 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 10,506
Btw is 1 rax FE into 3 rax still very good at masters+? im masters but I havn't play much HOTS yet.

It seems like if somebody openers all in or widow mines or just goes mech, there isnt much you can do.


I feel like opening like that forces you to COMPLETELY outplay your opponent because you can not straight up engage, and because I do do it it turns into another exhausting match up like TvP xD.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,206
1 rax fe into 3 rax is for pros only

most korean builds involve:
2 gas after CC, or a 13/15 refinery (whichever timing you like) into 2 gas
factory at some point
reactor at some point the trend has been to get the reactor before starting the factory, but this makes you vulnerable to reaper play

non - FE builds still good:
banshee cloaking
7 marine 3 hellion 1 medivac attack
4 hellion drop into tank marine + vikings then a push (MKP)
2 hellion 2 widow mine drop into ??????
gas first non cloaking banshee, into stim and 3 barrack


Mind telling me which video or replay I can find MKP doing that build.

What time does he gets his 2nd gas and expansion? does he go gas first?


http://drop.sc/312081 this is the version i have been doing, my macro is off because i'm not in practice

http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/23-2013-winter-championship#2424/2427/1;99897

mkp vs jjakji
spoilers below
_

-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

-
-
-
-

MKP uses the same build 2 games in a row, but instead of going into immediate tank viking like this build normally does (or how i see it from players most of the time), he goes for raven. this is because jjakji likes marauders in tvt more than a lot of other terrans early on in the game, and now in HOTS, mostly players use marauders(PDD spell), widow mines (raven to detect), and vikings to stop your vision of his tanks (PDD spell). when you drop hellions, 9/10 times, the terran will start marauders because marines die quickly to them and marauders with concussive shell can slow the hellions down and catch them. unfortunately for MKP, jjakji took a delayed gas in both games, and went into hellions of his own.which let him stop the drop easily. he was scanned or scouted in both games as going 2 gasses before expo, so he knew that an experienced player like jjakji would go for mines after hellions (reactor is already on the factory) but instead, mkp was fooled into making a raven both games and jjakji was going into really fast siege tanks every set after the hellions, which made MKP's build not work.
Edited by JiSooPark on 3/21/2013 4:50 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,206
We are Terran, we have the most opener out of all three races. The "best" opener is to change your opener and experiment the strength / weakness of each, especially in TvT.

As for Korean TvT, most of the time they go for 1 base early aggression into expand.

Rreaper opening
hellion drop
cloak banshee
widow mine drop

Mix in any of these and defend against his aggression.

Into marine siege tank (siege up outside their natural)

I guess this is Terran version of zergling / Baneling before going into mid-game :D


yes it is like zergling baneling

exactly like it. in a high level tvt right now, most players open 1 or 2 gas aggression and scouting, because gasless is very hard to pull off right now. you just get dropped by mines or hellions, then killed by a follow up. after both players trade evenly for a while, they go into expansions and play from there, sometimes they double expand which is super popular right now (banshee > 2 more CC's)
Reply Quote
Posts: 8,356
Expand into Marine Hellion Drop into quick 3 CC into Marine Tank(Innovation Vs Flash)
- 12 Rax
- 15 Gas
- Marine(x2)
- Reactor after 2 Marine
- CC
- Factory
- Starport
- Make 2 Marines out of Rax
- Switch Factory onto Reactor
- Techlab on Rax
- 2nd Gas when Starport finish
- Hellions(x4)
- Switch Factory and Rax
- 8 Marine, 4 Hellion Drop
- Double Gas and Double Rax after 3rd CC starts
Reply Quote
Posts: 10,506
Come to think of it, the other day Bomber was streaming and did a sick hellion + reaper.

Wish I could remember what that was called :S
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,857
i use
10 – Depot
12 – Barracks (1)
13 – Gas
16 – Orbital
17 – Marine
17 – Barracks (2)+Reactor on Barracks (1)
17 – Depot (2)
20 – @100% Reactor, start constant reactored Marine production
22 – @100% Barracks (2), start Techlab
@100% Techlab, start 1 Marauder and Stimpack research
@100% Marauder, start Refinery (2) as well as only Marine production
——-Initial 2rax poke happens here with 1 Marauder and 5 Marines
@100 Gas, start Factory
@100% Factory, start Techlab
@100% Techlab, start constant Siege Tank production
@90% Stim, start Starport
@100% Starport, start Medivac
@100 Gas, start Combat Shields
@8:45, Push out with 8 SCVs, around 25 Marines, 1 Marauder, 2 Tanks, and a Medivac

instead of pulling scvs off the line ill just contain him a bit if i can and expand.
Edited by Braunz on 3/21/2013 7:26 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 233
er ive been looking for builds and stuff on the net and i keep seeing this

10 – Depot
12 – Barracks (1)
13 – Gas
16 – Orbital
17 – Marine
17 – Barracks (2)+Reactor on Barracks (1)
17 – Depot (2)

what does "10" in 10 - Depot mean , are they minutes ?
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,978
er ive been looking for builds and stuff on the net and i keep seeing this

10 – Depot
12 – Barracks (1)
13 – Gas
16 – Orbital
17 – Marine
17 – Barracks (2)+Reactor on Barracks (1)
17 – Depot (2)

what does "10" in 10 - Depot mean , are they minutes ?

supply
Reply Quote
Posts: 2
how about 111???
Reply Quote
Posts: 670
15 gas
expo
factory
starport

Decide if you wanna go Mech or Bio.

Proceed with whatever you decide.

I found this is pretty safe vs. everything except some kind of reactored Reaper all-in.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,021
to hard counter the current meta (banshee into tanks)

fast thors

the only counter opening to hellbat drops of hellion/viking feels a bit weak atm as a general open as marine/tank kind of soft counters it (would need to scv pull if they siege you base which sets you behind)
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,271
1-1-1 scout, win.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,021
15 gas
expo
factory
starport

Decide if you wanna go Mech or Bio.

Proceed with whatever you decide.

I found this is pretty safe vs. everything except some kind of reactored Reaper all-in.


going 1/1/1 vs reactor reaper i find all you need to do is get the reactor on the factory and pump out marines and hellions, going for banshees as well would help

other way would be to get marauders out instead but i feel hellions hard counter reapers provided its at least 1 hellion per 2 reapers
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]