StarCraft® II

Mass muta... seriously?

Posts: 1,099
Is anyone else noticing with muta's absurd speed plus regen, that even GM Terrans are having trouble vs something as stupid as mass muta?

T will often get in one good attack before they can get the mutas out, but then they'll pop out a few mutas and pin the Terran in the base for a minute or two chasing the mutas around. That lets them get another 400-600 gas, and they pop out another 6 mutas plus whatever else they can spend their minerals on. Eventually, Terran is forced to entirely stay at home to defend his base because the mutas nearly one-shot any turret, and magic box any Thors. Even mines (I've seen 10 on the field in 3 different positions, and even that didn't take care of the mutas).

They're just able to cliff abuse, get in, move around for a second, kill something, move again, etc... and literally they're so hard to kill because of their speed that they snowball to the point that you need your entire army to defend against them, even splitting 3/3 marines into 2 balls would result in them slaughtering your entire army without any problem.

All this while, Zerg is just macroing back up at home, teching to ultras and BL, taking 5 bases, and if they ever need to defend, they have creep all over the place with speedlings to mop up the one or two medivacs worth of marines you can afford to send to snipe one of their hatches.

IMHO, it's beginning to be a bit absurd. Mutas of all things, probably one of the worst units on paper, has become potentially OP?
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Posts: 124
Widow mines and stimmed marines, also seeker missiles.
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Posts: 1,981
lol....seeker missiles really? You really think a muta player is going to sit there while you seeker missile him?

Widow mines, thats about it. Turrets dont really work anymore, marines wont catch them.
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Posts: 7,097
Marines, upgraded Missile Turrets, Widow Mines, and Thors all still work, though Mutalisks are slightly more effective against all of these than they used to be with the new Mutalisk buff.

Personally I'd go for adding a few Thors to support your army while getting extra turrets back at home. Also be ready to repair those turrets on demand.
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Posts: 6,475
I like a Turret / Mine combo, early on. Mines take supply and have a long cool down, but if I can draw his mutas in to focus the Turret(s) and pop them with the mine, the Turret should scare off the injured mutas long enough for the Mines to reset and the Turrets to get repaired.

I do wonder if the Muta regen is too good. It's 4x the standard Zerg heal rate on top of the increased speed. Hooray for double buffs. :\
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Posts: 2,206
turrets do not work anymore
marines do not either
thors have never worked
mines are your only option, meaning that you must leave supply heavy units at home

thankfully, most zergs are so retarded that they will come back to the same place like 5 times to harass, and lose alll their mutas because of it. once i play good players, i will probably just lose, mutalisk is imo the most difficult style in the game to play against
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Posts: 6,475
turrets do not work anymore
marines do not either
thors have never worked
mines are your only option, meaning that you must leave supply heavy units at home

thankfully, most zergs are so retarded that they will come back to the same place like 5 times to harass, and lose alll their mutas because of it. once i play good players, i will probably just lose, mutalisk is imo the most difficult style in the game to play against


You keep saying this, and I don't deny that Mutas are pretty ridiculous now, but I don't think Turrets are useless. I think their role has changed (in all match ups, in different ways). Against Mutas, I don't even concern myself with killing them now. My goal is to force them out. Turret / Mine does this. Bonus if he tries to focus the Turret and clumps for the Mines.
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Posts: 232
You must find out mutas are coming and drop 3 turrents protecting both mani and natural. You then must split up your army 3 ways, front and empty spaces in main.

Build a thor. As soon as he hits and looks like he might be gone for more than15 seconds, move out and leave the thor behind.

Mutas are not the problem...its vipers and that bulls**t green cloud.

Also put your turrents very close to each other, almost touching. Boxer did this and i think it works far better than we they are to far apart and can be picked off 1 by 1 easier..
Edited by SuitedUp on 3/23/2013 11:01 AM PDT
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Posts: 232
03/23/2013 06:17 AMPosted by Snuck
even splitting 3/3 marines into 2 balls would result in them slaughtering your entire army without any problem.


if this happens, then your macro is garbage, and you know what you need to work on.
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Posts: 10,506
Hmmm well, if he is forgoing banelings to get even MORE mutas, I justify getting thors over siege tanks (at least, initially).

One thing though is their acceleration has increased, and I think that they spread faster now than they used to, which may be a reason why you feel the anti air splash isn't what it used to be.

After watching a lot of pro games, it seems to be that we now have to engage in a game of forcing him to focus fire (therefor clumping for our thors and widow mines) or magic box (where spreading ourselves out helps and the turrets last longer). It is similar to using marines, when the speedlings come, reduce surface area and when the banelings come, split. Do the wrong one and you die, it is now up to us to make a similar dynamic in a muta defense/attack.

I know what you mean though, they are so fast, you really can't move out until the zerg makes a mistake or you trade SUPER well.
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Posts: 6,687
I find that mines work best, especially with the drilling claws upgrade, burrow right in their faces and fire. Thors are more important now.

And here I thought zerg said mutas were forced out of the matchup because of the mine. The lower level players scoff at that and own my bio-ball. I'm sort of glad to hear this is also the case in the upper leagues in that mutas are still useful, but sort of sad to hear that they're very strong.
Edited by JorgeCis on 3/23/2013 11:21 AM PDT
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Posts: 1,099
03/23/2013 11:08 AMPosted by SuitedUp
even splitting 3/3 marines into 2 balls would result in them slaughtering your entire army without any problem.


if this happens, then your macro is garbage, and you know what you need to work on.


You're an idiot... what part of "3/3 marines (when split) not being able to kill an absurd amount of mass mutas" makes someone's macro garbage? Really?

I love people that think my macro is crap when they haven't a clue what they're talking about, and especially when they compare two completely unrelated things.

So, let me get this straight, you're saying my macro's garbage because I don't have 120 marines just sitting there, leaving it up to split into two groups of 60 and 60, which is what is needed to have a chance against 35 mutas. I'm sorry, most people with two cents upstairs actually build more than just marines, lest they die to everything else zerg has. *sigh*
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Posts: 232
[quote="84139745160"][quote]what part of "3/3 marines (when split) not being able to kill an absurd amount of mass mutas" makes someone's macro garbage? Really?


Well yours, duh.
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Posts: 1,099
03/23/2013 11:57 AMPosted by SuitedUp
[quote]
[quote]what part of "3/3 marines (when split) not being able to kill an absurd amount of mass mutas" makes someone's macro garbage? Really?


Well yours, duh.


*sigh*

That almost makes sense... try harder next time kid... maybe throw in an "I know you are but what am I?" That one always works well...
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Posts: 2,206
turrets do not work anymore
marines do not either
thors have never worked
mines are your only option, meaning that you must leave supply heavy units at home

thankfully, most zergs are so retarded that they will come back to the same place like 5 times to harass, and lose alll their mutas because of it. once i play good players, i will probably just lose, mutalisk is imo the most difficult style in the game to play against


You keep saying this, and I don't deny that Mutas are pretty ridiculous now, but I don't think Turrets are useless. I think their role has changed (in all match ups, in different ways). Against Mutas, I don't even concern myself with killing them now. My goal is to force them out. Turret / Mine does this. Bonus if he tries to focus the Turret and clumps for the Mines.


they're useless in the way that i used them in wol is probably more of an accurate statement (i would make like, 3-4, build enough to zone them out completedly and not keep any units at home cept reinforcements)

now it doesn't work as well because they fly in, hit it, pull back weakened muta, and your scvs take splash repairing, then they run, heal up in 90 seconds to full even if at 1hp and come back, and the splash your scvs take really adds up. like you can't afford to keep building turrets and repairing them as well as your scvs. your best bet is to burrow clusters of mines together. my favorite tactic is putting about three in between where the vespene geysers and minerals are (like the gap between them. each base has a gap in between the minerals and the 2 geysers)

when he shows up and goes immediately for gas scvs, he loses a lot of mutas instantly , not counting turrets i also build (which i dont really)if he goes for the mineral line and your mines can't reach, i pull the scvs half into each geyser, they clump up there and are more susceptible to splash from the mutas, but at a maximum of 3 glaive bounces, it's definitely ok to do this in exchange for like 5 mutas dying to the mine clusters

note: be careful where you put your mines, i have seen a couple placements where zergs can attack a building (or a geyser like i suggest you put them near) and they splash your mines with glaive worms. normally not a problem, just something to think about
Edited by JiSooPark on 3/23/2013 5:45 PM PDT
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Posts: 4,065
mutas are all about momentum, if he can get them to your side of the map you're not active enough
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Posts: 2,284
Just because they are a little faster and can regen a little faster doesn't mean they are suddenly OP. This just means they can harass a little more frequently than before so just get an extra turret or two than before, no big deal.
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Posts: 2,206
mutas are all about momentum, if he can get them to your side of the map you're not active enough


i find this statement intensely interesting and surprisingly accurate from my own experiences
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Posts: 244
When mutalisks reach a critical mass, Zerg becomes unstoppable. Muta/Bling/Sling has always been extremely difficult, and nothing has changed. Mutas will all but one-shot missile turrets when they get to a high enough number, and it takes an incredible amount of skill to keep your Marines and tanks alive by constantly microing their position.

Your only option is to assault the Zerg bases, at which point he will most likely simply cripple your income with his mutas and fly back with only a base down at the most and kill you with the zerg reinforcement speed.

Only viable solutions:

1. Be the best player imaginable and turn into a pro-gamer level Terran.
2. Kill the Zerg early to mid-game.
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Posts: 4,065
When mutalisks reach a critical mass, Zerg becomes unstoppable. Muta/Bling/Sling has always been extremely difficult, and nothing has changed. Mutas will all but one-shot missile turrets when they get to a high enough number, and it takes an incredible amount of skill to keep your Marines and tanks alive by constantly microing their position.

Your only option is to assault the Zerg bases, at which point he will most likely simply cripple your income with his mutas and fly back with only a base down at the most and kill you with the zerg reinforcement speed.

Only viable solutions:

1. Be the best player imaginable and turn into a pro-gamer level Terran.
2. Kill the Zerg early to mid-game.


it doesn't take a lot of apm to just box units and move them accross the map

sending out small groups of units to die sounds like a bad idea, but it keeps him on his side of the map and allows your other units to push forward in other areas

obviously you need some defense to deal with a counter attack, but when the first group of mutas pop you should already be out on the map threating
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