*Masters only*: TvP endgame, need tips

Posts: 35
#Update: Mech TvP replay, used on EU servers now. mech vs groundtoss into skytoss
--- http://drop.sc/325989 ---

Anyone else getting crushed if the game goes into 4+ bases vs protoss?

Whatever I do, I stand no chance. Zealot/archon/ht/coll and stalker (if needed) with instant warpin from 20+ gates, cannons everywhere at expos to deny drops and 2+ DTs attacks pr. expo here and there.

No matter how well it goes in an engagement, I aint able to go 20 meters further because warpins has arrived and cannons to back them up at expos. And if I somewhat get to their main, a coll or more abuse the highground with massive losses if I engage.

This has been the last 4-5 games for me vs protoss, and I just get sick of how insane hard they are in the endgame. And early pressure gets shut down with counterharrass with either DT or oracle, and/or sentries to block the ramp, and add MSC.

I usually use MMM hellbat comp with either ghosts or vikings, with fast 3-0 bio and armor on mech.
Edited by ShrieK on 4/20/2013 8:06 PM PDT
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Posts: 9,619
Regardless of what level feedback you want it's helpful to provide replays of games highlighting where you're having problems.

Otherwise all you'll be getting is just general advice most of which a Master's level player should already know.
Edited by Vindicare on 4/19/2013 8:12 PM PDT
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Posts: 35
Ill link some tomorrow:)
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Posts: 3,739
no man, there's nothing you can really do but try to beat him earlier than that... which is stupid... toss knows this... their goal isnt to win (except if they choose one of the fifty 1 base all ins they have), but rather to survive to about the 16 to 17 minute mark where they now have HT's and collossus death ball

at that point you lose

toss is literally the deathball race in every single matchup... its pretty lame

the nexus cannon is absolutely the WORST thing given out to a race this expansion.... our only advantage is the early/mid game, and they basically completely took it away by giving them that... by giving them the mothership core and that cannon ability it also opened more 1 base all ins as well

stupid. i would trade the widow mine out completely to get rid of the nexus cannon
Edited by InfamousOne on 4/19/2013 11:30 PM PDT
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Posts: 576
Okay, in tvp its like this and its a joke, really

1 rax expo
add 2 rax
stay on two gas if you're not getting reactors on your barracks, this way your 2 medivac timing will hit at the 10 minute mark

you basically get 10 min medivacs with this timing, u know the standard terran build order
you're gonna scout on 13 gas and scout again on the 5 minute mark to avoid all cheeses against protoss

you're going to get a 3rd cc on the 8 minute mark but your opponents will always do blind strategies (which i think is completely idiotic because theyre supposed to play reactive but instead your opponents are so random that it totally throws you off)

so if they do blind strategies they will do one of the following:

fast psi storm
2 forge on the 7 minute mark
colossi standard build
8 gate which is highly unlikely

no one on the na ladder has been playing standard recently and if they do they'll basically just do this:

place 8 stalkers in the main base, put zealots and colossi between the natural and the 2nd base

this defense still beats speed medivacs
so its like chess, its stupid but its chess with only 1 move thats ever possible to come out of medivac play

ok so protoss will gain a 3rd expansion (depending on the terrain its alot easier on maps like whirldwind)

a ton of protoss can stay 2 forge and go colossi as long as they can defend, now this is the worst part of terran because you have to be able to trade efficiently because your mules will basically win the game

trade and use your mules, the more u drop mules on your minerals the more chances of winning, but then again a ton of protoss players will do zealot run bys and then youll lose a lot of your zealots and you have to multitask more than your opponent to win the game

mid to late game protoss will have equivalent upgrades against yours which is fair, and trading is still very difficult against protoss, because all they will ever do is play defensive

when protoss players play defensive you cant do anything against it, there are no holes in their builds, just look how sktrain plays, camp all game

so im just gonna speed up the nonsense and get straight to the mid game

here are the problems:

1. you dont know what tech they'll do so u gotta do a 2 medivac push
2. you have to take a third always to win most of your tvps, or you auto lose to really good protoss players
3. since u dont know their tech before u do ur 2 medivac push ull keep making medivacs hwich your opponent without any scouting hardcounters you already if they go colossi
4. they will transition to high templars with that advantage, easier
5. if you go double starport they will transition easier to psi storm
6. they will just inevitable get a third base whether you like it or not, theres no way to trade effectively against any solid protoss
7. its going to be a game where supply will reach 160, and your unit composition sucks because of #3, #4, and #5, because your opponent alreayd hardcountered you from the beginning
8. if it keeps going your opponent will get 3-3 upgrades faster than u do (if he's really good)
9. now into the late late game, which in tvp always happens atleast 5 out of 10 games
10 in the late late game, it doesnt matter how clean you play, your opponent will always trade better than you

think of tvp like youre going bio and you're up against mech, except this protoss player has tanks that cost 2 supply each

you're basically screwed

i dont know how to beat protoss either, u just read some stupid nonsense
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Posts: 576
the funniest part about tvp is that hellbats counter zealots right? so if you're copying one of the kespa players like innovation, you would get armor upgrades for your mech right? because hellbats will hard counter zealots, but guess what? your opponent is protoss, he will get colossi and colossi beats hellbats, and worse of all, you only have one armory, and u didn't get starport +1 weapon upgrades mid game, so your hell bats can't really do anything, so you trade worse

if you get weapon attack on air units, the game just turns into wol, with a dt buff, sure you can get hellbats, it might win, who knows?
Edited by LowApm on 4/20/2013 1:04 AM PDT
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Posts: 1,423
What counters HT? Ghosts.

What counters Colossi? Vikings.

What counters zealots? Hellbats.

Therefore, Ghost/Hellbat/Viking (+ some medivacs to heal up the ghosts/hellbats). Also helps to cloak your ghosts, then scan and use the vikings to pick off the obs.
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Posts: 212
Late game, pf's + sensor towers and mass OC. Marauder drops can takeout cannons, and dps a nexus pretty quickly. If you sack 30 supply of scvs, use that to do multiprong drops while you engage his army, or use it to beef up your force for a more convincing victory.

Unfortunately in tvp, when we win 1 fight, the only thing we can do is go home and prepare for the next one, slowly improving our unit comp while fighting the war of attrition. The most important thing to do is deny expansions anyway you can, and just continue to fight until the protoss is depleted or if you trash his main base.

I like to use nukes latelate game for expansion denial, using 4 ghosts +1 medivac while keeping maybe one other drop active and always looking for a good engagment on the protoss army.

Always keep Observer sniping as a priority because it stresses the protoss out, and you can carpet emp him. you can also try putting a WM at the next expansion you think he will take, so he won't be able to place it untill the WM is dead - and you get the information :D

ALWAYS keep your army pre-concaved,and ALWAYS try to pick the fights.
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Posts: 35
your opponent is protoss, he will get colossi and colossi beats hellbats, and worse of all, you only have one armory, and u didn't get starport +1 weapon upgrades mid game, so your hell bats can't really do anything, so you trade worse


True, but I get a superfast +3 on bio in return. Yes the BO and armycomp are copied from kespa, I have tried some different tactics lately, watching HTOmario (mech), demuslim, polt etc for inspiration and clues in the MU, but most of the tosses I meet either does some funky allin, warpprism dt's (hidden) or drag the game into the latelategame, which I feel are insanehard when he banks up minerals to make a gazillion cannons all over the map and smartly placed HTs both in his army and expos. I have even tried to end the game in the midgame, but with coll on highground and/or fast HTs with Pnexus makes it basicly an allin, because either it will win or I am too far behind to get back.

However I will try the same build some more, tweak it abit and look for better timingattacks with it. I'll see what replays I can find if you guys are intrested in taking a sneakpeak.

TL:DR: You may have a point there, and I am very open for tips'n'tricks atm
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Posts: 2,404
You should never enter into a position where Protoss has 20+ Warp Gates, 4-5 bases, mass Cannons, 3/3, and every tech tree.

Use your mobility
One of bio's greatest strengths against Protoss is the ability to attack multiple locations at once, and run away as soon as they bring reinforcements. The 10-16 minute mark is crucial and game deciding for the Terran player. You don’t have to kill them during this time, but you should deal enough damage to stay 1-2 bases ahead and raise your Ghost/Viking count.

There are 3 scenarios at the 10 minute mark:
1) He builds Photon Cannons to defend against your drops.
2) He patrols Stalkers to defend against your drops.
3) He has nothing in position to defend against your drops.

Scenario 1
Since the cannons are static, try to find soft targets to pick off with your drops. Oftentimes a good player will build 2-3 at the most to protect their mineral line and important structures, while neglecting random Pylons around their base. These are essentially free kills for you.

Take the rest of your army and keep him from taking a third, while securing your own. Cannons mean less Gateways, which means less units, so denying a third should be easy with your superior army size.

Scenario 2
This is the better of the two defenses, but it is very hard for the Protoss to balance out how many they need. You should be able to deal damage by exploiting their unit positioning.

If they have too few Stalkers, you can grab 2-3 loaded Medivacs and boost in and destroy their entire infrastructure. If they have too many Stalkers, you can retreat your Medivacs back to your main army and push their natural.

Scenario 3
Self-explanatory. You win. :)

Rule of thumb: Send 1 loaded Medivac for every 3 Gateways he has. If he has 3 Gates, send 1 Medivac. If he has 5-6 Gates, send 2 Medivacs.

Late-game unit composition
You should slowly be replacing Marines with Ghosts, and sacking mineral SCVs for MULEs to increase your army supply. Despite their high price, Ghosts are incredibly effective per supply because they gather up energy for EMP/Snipe and cast nukes.

If you're floating a lot of gas (common with late-game bio), don't be afraid to throw in some Ravens too. Seeker Missile is a lot cheaper and more effective now.

Hope this helps!
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Posts: 2,461
I win late game but i am really good with bc ghost thor and add ravens if needed .
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Posts: 165
i prefer 2 raxing protoss so that they just roll over and die before the endgame. but should you make it there, i prefer bc raven viking. the only thing that can realistically deal with bcs is tempests, but pdd eats those shots and the vikings can hunt them down before they run away.
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Posts: 2,278
Some one post a replay :D
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Posts: 2,461
Some one post a replay :D

You should of saved the ones i showed you with banshee thor hellbat :D .
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Posts: 1,078
late game double factory production of hellbats is really strong
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Posts: 35
I found out a wonderful mechplay, which I tried for the first time today. For once terran forced protoss to micro and split units, and not just amove :o

The BO and such needs some adjustments, but here is it; mech TvP, groundtoss into skytoss which gets shattered, but with which units?

http://drop.sc/325989

Tell me what you think about this build :p

#it was 5am in the morning and some beers were left empty, so take the gameplay with a pinch of salt :D
Edited by ShrieK on 4/21/2013 10:22 AM PDT
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