StarCraft® II

Did you like story for the writing?

Posts: 19,710
This also never happened. Zeratul merely told her to go to zerus for her own information, and perhaps she would help the swarm by going there. Zeratul never told her to become reinfested.


Actually, he DID say for Zerus to remake her. If Zeratul didn't mean reinfestation, what did you think he meant?
Reply Quote
Posts: 66
04/20/2013 03:04 PMPosted by ragnarok
This also never happened. Zeratul merely told her to go to zerus for her own information, and perhaps she would help the swarm by going there. Zeratul never told her to become reinfested.


Actually, he DID say for Zerus to remake her. If Zeratul didn't mean reinfestation, what did you think he meant?


Yeah Zeratul said that. But Kerrigan's reinfestation was not motivated by Zeratul's words. That conversation went like this:
Z:You must let Zerus remake you, Kerrigan! The final war nears, and there is little time.
K:I don't have to do a damn thing. I will not be a pawn in your prophecies.
Z:But you will do anything to have your revenge?
K:Anything.
Z:Then that is enough.
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,762
Ah i see, well ill take another look at that cinematic.
Reply Quote
Posts: 165
Picking apart my argument like this is really low of you, I believe. I put in the very next sentence afterwards that I was exaggerating a small amount for dramatic effect. And even then most of my points still stand on their own merit.

This is completely false, ever since BW he has been revolting for the past 4 years.


"It's time to kick this revolution into overdrive"

And Horner makes it pretty explicit through WoL that they were doing jack all before that.

Kerrigan attacks long after raynor's revolution (which started 4 years go). The reason for her sudden reawakening is because of the artifacts.


I'll grant you this. But the timing of this being just after Raynor starts his revolution is just all crazy happenstance.

Zeratul came across some horrific information that he had to tell Raynor. In order to convince him further, he left the ihan crystal with him.


Yeah that's exactly part of my point. He just comes across some deus ex machina information from the ghost of a dead ultra powerful being telling them all explicity what to do to play the part as puppets.

Kerrigan was not getting revenge on mengsk in WoL, she was after the artifact. In HotS, she lost many of her memories as the queen of blades, however her hatred for arcturus increases when she learns of Raynor's death.


She's already worked through this part of her character mostly in Brood War.

And I was shifting to HOTS at this, I organized these points mostly chronologically so they would retain a semblance of order. Sure you could say Raynor's 'death' made her do everything she did, but one of the most common complaints about the HOTS storyline is that everything Kerrigan does is just based around flawed logic and personal whims. Her dealings with the Protoss, with Warfield, becoming zerg again, finding Raynor alive but then still deciding revenge against Mengsk is her greatest concern. They all just appear to be very arbitrary decisions.

This also never happened. Zeratul merely told her to go to zerus for her own information, and perhaps she would help the swarm by going there. Zeratul never told her to become reinfested.


As the poster above me put, yes he did tell her.
Edited by xajdragonx on 4/20/2013 3:52 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,762
"It's time to kick this revolution into overdrive"

And Horner makes it pretty explicit through WoL that they were doing jack all before that.


In order to "kick" something into overdrive, it has to already be present. Horner was indicating their lack of progress until recently, which may have been due to kerrigan's invasion.

I'll grant you this. But the timing of this being just after Raynor starts his revolution is just all crazy happenstance.


Raynor started it 4 years ago. It says so during the installation.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/media/videos/?keywords=&view#/story-uncertain-future

04/20/2013 03:50 PMPosted by xajdragonx
Yeah that's exactly part of my point. He just comes across some deus ex machina information from the ghost of a dead ultra powerful being telling them all explicity what to do to play the part as puppets.


This is what zeratul has been searching for quite some time for some information. However, this is far from arbitrary. It took quite a bit to convince him that she needs to live.

She's already worked through this part of her character mostly in Brood War.


Unfortunately, she doesnt remember much of what she did as the QoB.

And I was shifting to HOTS at this, I organized these points mostly chronologically so they would retain a semblance of order. Sure you could say Raynor's 'death' made her do everything she did, but one of the most common complaints about the HOTS storyline is that everything Kerrigan does is just based around flawed logic and personal whims. Her dealings with the Protoss, with Warfield, becoming zerg again, finding Raynor alive but then still deciding revenge against Mengsk is her greatest concern. They all just appear to be very arbitrary decisions.


How is this flawed logic? First off, Arcturus attempted to kill both Raynor and kerrigan, so she is justified in fighting back. That is FAR from arbitrary. She also believed that Raynor was killed by Arcturus, which she has little reason to think otherwise (he was just trying to kill them after all).

She killed warfield because of 2 reasons. He was with the dominion and she needed the zerg on that planet. How is this arbitrary?

Even in SC1 pre-infestation, kerrigan was not a fan of the protoss, and she needed the zerg. How is this arbitrary?

As the poster above me put, yes he did tell her.


My mistake, however he still had good reason to do so. How could he expect her to do anything in her human form? If she has a role to play, it'd be better for her to be as strong as possible. How is this arbitrary?
Edited by Brathearon on 4/20/2013 4:40 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 19,710
04/20/2013 03:19 PMPosted by Kerriberry


Actually, he DID say for Zerus to remake her. If Zeratul didn't mean reinfestation, what did you think he meant?


Yeah Zeratul said that. But Kerrigan's reinfestation was not motivated by Zeratul's words. That conversation went like this:
Z:You must let Zerus remake you, Kerrigan! The final war nears, and there is little time.
K:I don't have to do a damn thing. I will not be a pawn in your prophecies.
Z:But you will do anything to have your revenge?
K:Anything.
Z:Then that is enough.


Yeah I know that. But that's not my point.

Zeratul had said for Zerus to remake her. Did HE meant for Kerrigan to get reinfested or not.

I'm not talking about the reason Kerrigan chose for reinfestation, I'm asking did Zeratul mean for Kerrigan to get reinfested AT ALL or not.
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,762
I'm not talking about the reason Kerrigan chose for reinfestation, I'm asking did Zeratul mean for Kerrigan to get reinfested AT ALL or not.


Well, she was still slightly infested, he could have meant for her to remove what was left. Aside from that, she was free to do whatever she wanted.
Reply Quote
Posts: 165
Haha oh christ you are so pedantic I'm not even sure I can continue after this

Fine, Raynor arbitrarily decides to "kick his revolution into overdrive". And the fact Kerrigan invades an extremely short time afterwards was the coincidence.

Also, the problem with Zeratul's information wasn't that it was hard to convince Jim Raynor, haha how did you even come to that line of thought? Hell if someone I trusted told me to do something, I'd probably do it to. But it is the nature of the information that's suspect. It's just a prophecy that orders people to do arbitrary things in order to survive, and Zeratul is just relaying that information on to everyone telling them to do it.

The reason it is weird that she decides Mengsk is the greatest threat is talked about earlier in this thread as well. She hears about a threat far greater than Mengsk, Amon. And yet she focuses all of her forces on deposing him. So her reason for attacking him doesn't seem to be very likely that he was attacking her. She kills Warfield on a whim, then saves his civilians on a whim. And there are better explanations than this short one out there in threads in the HOTS campaign section why her decisions for doing things were just silly.
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,762
Picking apart my argument like this is really low of you, I believe. I put in the very next sentence afterwards that I was exaggerating a small amount for dramatic effect. And even then most of my points still stand on their own merit.


I did so because you said that your use of the word was justified

04/20/2013 02:29 PMPosted by xajdragonx
I think you should go to the dictionary and look up the meaning of the word arbitrarily, then go replay SC1, because nothing you said was arbitrarily done in any way.


I clearly justified my use of the word in the following paragraphs, which you no doubt didn't bother to read at all.

Arbitrary, meaning that it wasn't based on their characters making actual decisions, they were just moved around by chance (Zeratul telling them what to do for no apparent reason) or personal whims (they just decide to do it, like when they all decided to impulsively attack for no apparent reason). Clearly you didn't look up the word arbitrary before this.


Fine, Raynor arbitrarily decides to "kick his revolution into overdrive". And the fact Kerrigan invades an extremely short time afterwards was the coincidence.


he may have said that on more than on occasion though.

Also, the problem with Zeratul's information wasn't that it was hard to convince Jim Raynor, haha how did you even come to that line of thought? Hell if someone I trusted told me to do something, I'd probably do it to. But it is the nature of the information that's suspect. It's just a prophecy that orders people to do arbitrary things in order to survive, and Zeratul is just relaying that information on to everyone telling them to do it.


Your original statement was that raynor was arbitrarily told to spare kerrigan by zeratul, which it was not arbitrary. Also, the prophecy didnt order anyone to do anything. It was the Overmind's plan that zeratul found out this information, and this may not even work. Is it the only way to stop amon? Probably not

Also, how can you think that it is arbitrary when hybrids require both zerg and protoss. It would make sense to deny his access to both as much as possible. It doesnt seem arbitrary at all.

The reason it is weird that she decides Mengsk is the greatest threat is talked about earlier in this thread as well. She hears about a threat far greater than Mengsk, Amon. And yet she focuses all of her forces on deposing him. So her reason for attacking him doesn't seem to be very likely that he was attacking her. She kills Warfield on a whim, then saves his civilians on a whim. And there are better explanations than this short one out there in threads in the HOTS campaign section why her decisions for doing things were just silly.


I told you why she killed warfield. He was part of the dominion, and he was going to kill zerg she could use. The civilians arent part exactly part of those.

Also, she doesnt just have 1 reason for killing arcturus, and that is hardly arbitrary. For one, we already discussed that he has actively tried to kill her. He also killed Raynor (as far as she knows). Also, Arcturus betrayed her in the first place and left her to die. On top of all of this, when she learns of this "bigger threat" that you are talking about, she finds out that Arcturus is part of the hybrid production. These hardly seem like arbitrary reasons for her to kill Arcturus.

Sure there is a bigger threat out there but she has no idea where it is, how to stop it, or if narud was just lying so that she can chase her own tail while the terran and protoss kill her.
Reply Quote
Posts: 322

Fine, Raynor arbitrarily decides to "kick his revolution into overdrive". And the fact Kerrigan invades an extremely short time afterwards was the coincidence.


Kerrigan invaded in order to secure the Zelnaga artifact. After all each planet she attacked either had a piece of the artifact on it or information related to it. At least those planets that received her personal attention. Raynor was going after the artifact because he required funding for his rebellion. The two weren't directly related but shared a common cause. It's much like the fact that ice cream sells and drowning increase in frequency with one another. In truth ice cream sells and drowning have nothing to do with one another but they're both influenced by the increase in temperature.

Raynor likely wanted to kick his rebellion into over drive far sooner but was struggling with the funding.


Also, the problem with Zeratul's information wasn't that it was hard to convince Jim Raynor, haha how did you even come to that line of thought? Hell if someone I trusted told me to do something, I'd probably do it to. But it is the nature of the information that's suspect. It's just a prophecy that orders people to do arbitrary things in order to survive, and Zeratul is just relaying that information on to everyone telling them to do it.


Zeratul didn't just tell Raynor to do it. He left him the crystal which retained his memories and allowed Raynor to directly experience what he had experienced. Keep in mind that Raynor was surprised whenever he learned that he must spare Kerrigan during the second protoss mission. The fact that Raynor needed to live Zeratul's memories to be convinced that Kerrigan have to be spared is why people say it was hard to convince him. Given the vision the future Zeratul's contact with the Overmind provided I would say it's quite clear that killing Kerrigan is a bad thing.


The reason it is weird that she decides Mengsk is the greatest threat is talked about earlier in this thread as well. She hears about a threat far greater than Mengsk, Amon. And yet she focuses all of her forces on deposing him. So her reason for attacking him doesn't seem to be very likely that he was attacking her. She kills Warfield on a whim, then saves his civilians on a whim. And there are better explanations than this short one out there in threads in the HOTS campaign section why her decisions for doing things were just silly.


Kerrigan does not know where Amon is and Mengsk has proven several times that he won't stop pursuing her. You do not leave an enemy at your back. Given all that Mengsk has put her through she also has plenty of reason to want him dead. Given that Warfield has been trying to kill her for two missions and she repeatedly warned him to leave char I would not call her killing him a whim. Especially whenever he chose to antagonize her further by bringing Raynor up. After all it was the Dominion army of which Warfield is quite high ranking in that has been hunting her and Jim.
Reply Quote
Posts: 8,731
04/20/2013 04:58 PMPosted by Inprea
You do not leave an enemy at your back.


Unless you're Kerrigan from Brood War.
Reply Quote
Posts: 322
04/20/2013 06:43 PMPosted by JohnnyZeWolf
You do not leave an enemy at your back.


Unless you're Kerrigan from Brood War.


Well that's just plain bad tactics.
Reply Quote
Posts: 849
Well that's just plain bad tactics.


Kerrigan did just become the undisputed dominant power in the sector by the end of BW. I think she was intending to enjoy toying with those she had just ground underfoot. The Amon thing probably just distracted her and changed her focus from keeping Mengsk and the protoss under control to preparing for the eventual doom of all things. Her enemies gaining power probably ironically equated to some of the pressure being taken off of her once the "end" did commence, as they would be fighting back too.
Reply Quote
Posts: 19,710
04/20/2013 09:12 PMPosted by DarthTimmy
Kerrigan did just become the undisputed dominant power in the sector by the end of BW.


Yeah but Amon's influence made her cocky and arrogant. That's why she was defeated in the Char invasion in WoL.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,924
That is the point. The story would still be great, and almost everyone would like the story even if the graphics werent so great. They like it for the story.


Although Sc1's graphics were horrible (good at that time) the game compensated for that in many many many ways .

Hots's story was horrible but it felt much much better because of the design part of the game .

What does this have to do with what you said ?

And btw ... you keep talking about ,,off screen'' when has this happened ? Then we aren't talking about a game anymore ... Wanna compare sc1 and hots bringing them to the same design level , do so , but don't start wildly changing the whole concept

Yes we are talking about the story, but they do not believe that final scene was a good part of the story. People find both raynor and tychus's actions stupid, and the kerrigan's reaction as well. They would feel this way regardless of how high definition, realistic, exciting, low quality, or even if this happened off screen. They hate it because of the story, the same reason other people would like it for the story.


While giving this example , please explain why those actions are stupid , ok ''?
and
If not for the game part of the ...erm ... game , 99% of those people wouldn't even be there.

I don't understand why you are trying to give these ,,writing on a screen'' examples which deny Starcraft it's very nature ... but regardless

I was asking where your view was, but as you can see, the graphics have nothing to do with why people like or do not like the story. Many people hate both WoL and HotS because of the relationship.

However, your reason for liking it, has little to do with graphics.


After speaking with me for a week or more you still have 0 clue about what my pov is ... and you keep saying graphics , graphics ,graphics , graphics ....

I'm starting to think if this has any point ...
Reply Quote
Posts: 19,710
04/20/2013 06:44 PMPosted by Inprea


Unless you're Kerrigan from Brood War.


Well that's just plain bad tactics.


Well her tactics didn't COMPLETELY suck in BW...
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,924
Well her tactics didn't COMPLETELY suck in BW...


brainwashed Raszagal , weee
Reply Quote
Posts: 19,710
04/21/2013 01:18 AMPosted by HardCore
Well her tactics didn't COMPLETELY suck in BW...


brainwashed Raszagal , weee


Hey, few saw it coming...
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,762
Although Sc1's graphics were horrible (good at that time) the game compensated for that in many many many ways .

Hots's story was horrible but it felt much much better because of the design part of the game .

What does this have to do with what you said ?

And btw ... you keep talking about ,,off screen'' when has this happened ? Then we aren't talking about a game anymore ... Wanna compare sc1 and hots bringing them to the same design level , do so , but don't start wildly changing the whole concept


mengsk's actual death was done off-screen, yet people like it anyway. Also, by asking you if you would have liked the Overmind's death off-screen, i am asking you if you'd still like it even if you exclude the graphics and the voice acting, would you still like it?

As you can see, you can very easily separate graphics/voice acting from the story itself, much like many people do in these forums.

While giving this example , please explain why those actions are stupid , ok ''?
and
If not for the game part of the ...erm ... game , 99% of those people wouldn't even be there.

I don't understand why you are trying to give these ,,writing on a screen'' examples which deny Starcraft it's very nature ... but regardless


People have different reasons for saying so. For example, people say that Raynor should have asked tychus about how he got out of prison (despite him asking roughly 3 times throughout the campaign). As you can see, there is no amount of voice acting and graphics that could change an opinion like that. However, as you can see, other people do like it.

They also find kerrigan's "change" in personality stupid after de-infestation, how she seems calm in raynor's hands and such. No amount of graphics and voice acting will change an opinion like that either.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,924
04/21/2013 07:52 AMPosted by Brathearon
mengsk's actual death was done off-screen, yet people like it anyway.


We were shown exactly what happened to Mengsk , how he died , the fact that we weren't shown the milliseconds when he turns into fire has no relevance

Also, by asking you if you would have liked the Overmind's death off-screen, i am asking you if you'd still like it even if you exclude the graphics and the voice acting, would you still like it?


Man ... you just don't understand what I meant with graphics ... I previously explained the graphics - spirit - story relationship , I explained already ...

People have different reasons for saying so. For example, people say that Raynor should have asked tychus about how he got out of prison (despite him asking roughly 3 times throughout the campaign).


seriously ? ... yes he asked like 3 times + When a cold stone killer like Tychos doesn't want to tell you the truth ... why poke him ? seriously ?

As you can see, there is no amount of voice acting and graphics that could change an opinion like that. However, as you can see, other people do like it.


I understand what you are trying to say , but I find it irrelevant because of the kind of story - spirit - design of this particular example , I previously explained

04/21/2013 07:52 AMPosted by Brathearon
They also find kerrigan's "change" in personality stupid after de-infestation,


What personality ? That character is erratic to the core ...one second she kills millions (the production worlds) to eliminate a minor risk , the other second she takes HUGE risks to save civilians
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]