StarCraft® II

Did you like story for the writing?



Yeah but in the dream cinematic it didn't exactly show Dominion civilians being slaughtered by the Zerg, you know...


True but the city scape was looked very much like a civilian sector. I don't imagine a military region having roads like that or buildings with that many windows. The absence of people doesn't mean it's not a civilian sector or did those really look like military buildings to you in the dream? Plus during the actual invasion Raynor was by her side. I didn't see any sign of him during the dream sequence.


True, but Raynor's troops were small compared to the swarm. Raynor had maybe a few hundred men at most, the swarm invading Augustgrad had to be in the tens of millions...
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True but the city scape was looked very much like a civilian sector. I don't imagine a military region having roads like that or buildings with that many windows. The absence of people doesn't mean it's not a civilian sector or did those really look like military buildings to you in the dream? Plus during the actual invasion Raynor was by her side. I didn't see any sign of him during the dream sequence.


True, but Raynor's troops were small compared to the swarm. Raynor had maybe a few hundred men at most, the swarm invading Augustgrad had to be in the tens of millions...


That doesn't cover the issues of the city scape, landing troops within the city and the fact that the leviathans were kept back outside of weapon's range. Plus where do you get your estimate for the number of troops Raynor has? The Hypereon as I recall is a Gorgon class ship which is meant to have a crew of 8,000 and he landed the ship in the base. Effectively he seemed to be all in.

Now I wouldn't say he had the full 8,000 crew but where do you get your number that he only had a few hundred? After all he built his army up through Wings of Liberty and I can't help but suspect he had the people loyal to Valerian helping him as well.

Actually the Hyperion might have been fully crewed. I know in Flashpoint they had to take on the crew from one of Valerian's Gorgons that was destroyed. Well half the crew. So they could have had the full 8,000 as they were complaining about over crowding.
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The Hypereon as I recall is a Gorgon class ship which is meant to have a crew of 8,000 and he landed the ship in the base. Effectively he seemed to be all in.


No, the Hyperion is Behemoth Class, it's a much older design. It's strong and probably can go toe to toe with a Gorgon BattleCruiser for a while, but that's it.
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She probably landed in a civilian sector because that was the safest and perhaps only location to land.
Edited by Brathearon on 4/21/2013 2:02 PM PDT
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She probably landed in a civilian sector because that was the safest and perhaps only location to land.


And attract the attention of immediate Dominion military forces right away? I doubt it.
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04/21/2013 02:04 PMPosted by ragnarok
She probably landed in a civilian sector because that was the safest and perhaps only location to land.


And attract the attention of immediate Dominion military forces right away? I doubt it.


Wouldnt that happen regardless of where she landed? Especially if she landed in a military zone?
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04/21/2013 02:06 PMPosted by Brathearon


And attract the attention of immediate Dominion military forces right away? I doubt it.


Wouldnt that happen regardless of where she landed? Especially if she landed in a military zone?


I guess it really depended on how effective the Korhal planetary defenses were. The swarm lost millions to reach the surface, but they advanced forward just fine.
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Kerrigan landed outside of Augustgrad as she promised to Valerian for the evacuation of civilians.
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Kerrigan landed outside of Augustgrad as she promised to Valerian for the evacuation of civilians.


Yeah I know, though initially she didn't want to do that because she just wanted Mengsk dead ASAP.
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04/21/2013 02:02 PMPosted by ragnarok
The Hypereon as I recall is a Gorgon class ship which is meant to have a crew of 8,000 and he landed the ship in the base. Effectively he seemed to be all in.


No, the Hyperion is Behemoth Class, it's a much older design. It's strong and probably can go toe to toe with a Gorgon BattleCruiser for a while, but that's it.


I don't believe much older applies. Hypereon was the Flagship in starcraft 1 and warships tend to have a long service life. Still I see what you're saying about it being an older and smaller ship. Still I'm quite certain the crew was in the thousands. So I question your notion that Raynor would only have a few hundred people with him.

I also believe my points about the dream sequence and the actual invasion being quite different.

This could help me in other debates though. Does anyone know what the time line between WoL and Starcraft 1 is? As depending on the time to research, design and test the Gorgon class ships it seems to me the Dominion can make them relatively quickly. Given how many we see in WoL and Flashpoint.
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Does anyone know what the time line between WoL and Starcraft 1 is? As depending on the time to research, design and test the Gorgon class ships it seems to me the Dominion can make them relatively quickly. Given how many we see in WoL and Flashpoint.


Yeah SC1 was in the year spring 2500, and WoL in October 2504.
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04/21/2013 02:24 PMPosted by ragnarok
Does anyone know what the time line between WoL and Starcraft 1 is? As depending on the time to research, design and test the Gorgon class ships it seems to me the Dominion can make them relatively quickly. Given how many we see in WoL and Flashpoint.


Yeah SC1 was in the year spring 2500, and WoL in October 2504.


Good grief. So the Dominioin was able to research, design, build a facility to produce and produce over 12 Gorgons in roughly 4 years? That is quite a rapid rate of production. I wonder how quickly they can produce smaller single man ships like vikings.
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04/21/2013 02:32 PMPosted by Inprea


Yeah SC1 was in the year spring 2500, and WoL in October 2504.


Good grief. So the Dominioin was able to research, design, build a facility to produce and produce over 12 Gorgons in roughly 4 years? That is quite a rapid rate of production. I wonder how quickly they can produce smaller single man ships like vikings.


Unfortunately, that's the main problem with Mengsk's rule.

See, when he became convinced that the Zerg weren't returning any time soon, he simply let the fleet decay, and focused on hunting Raynor instead (this was said at the beginning of WoL).

Thus when Kerrigan launched the invasion to search for the Xel'Naga artifact fragments, the Dominion fleet was pushed back along the whole sector.
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See, when he became convinced that the Zerg weren't returning any time soon, he simply let the fleet decay, and focused on hunting Raynor instead (this was said at the beginning of WoL).


"Letting the fleet decay" is most likely an exaggeration on Lockwell's behalf, as the Dominion was able to design all sorts of new weapons during the Interbellum. Mengsk isn't THAT dumb.
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04/21/2013 05:52 PMPosted by JohnnyZeWolf
See, when he became convinced that the Zerg weren't returning any time soon, he simply let the fleet decay, and focused on hunting Raynor instead (this was said at the beginning of WoL).


"Letting the fleet decay" is most likely an exaggeration on Lockwell's behalf, as the Dominion was able to design all sorts of new weapons during the Interbellum. Mengsk isn't THAT dumb.


No, he was just too cocky and arrogant. Even during the Korhal invasion, he remained confident he'd win because he had the artifact. He was a fool to underestimate the bond between Raynor and Kerrigan.
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04/21/2013 01:22 PMPosted by Brathearon
It isnt.


I already explained why , scroll up

There as no clone in that cutscene. You see a flashback to when the device to kill kerrigan was inserted (Because it previously is not mentioned). Arcturus is merely activating it. That is why Arcturus says the line "..keep a monster like you close to me without some kind of insurance policy?". The only time he kept kerrigan close to him was in SC1, and technically brood war but he was in no position to have an insurance policy in BW, let alone use it.


What you say is invalidated by the fact Kerrigan repaired her brain from all the damage caused by human tempering .

What we saw was Mengsk using a clone of Kerrigan to attack her psionically ... Look at the images again ... What you are saying makes 0 sense ... what , do you think Mengsk was keeping Kerrigan in a jar between missions ? Do you think installing something as complicated as psionic inhibitors is as simple as injecting something in her neck ? What you are saying makes 0 sense ....

In HotS you could do that too... That is what i was saying.


I was talking about hots yes ...

So somehow how it is presented has an effect on how death is portrayed? It doesnt matter how epic philosophical or perfect that scene was. If his resurrection makes death no longer a consequence, then no matter how brightly you paint it, his return will do that.


Who the hell is naive enough to think this ? It's not like Tassadar sprung back to life lol , it's something completely different ... I already explained .... lol

04/21/2013 01:22 PMPosted by Brathearon
Making sense or not, people will still feel that characters can no longer die.


My God ... this is starting to feel so redundant .... I already explained :p And it makes 0 sense why somebody would feel like that , the argument supporting the complain is illogical , incoherent ... Its like a kid saying ,,ohh no ... now Tassadar is back to life and we are going to play with him again ? awww ... boring !''

This is something that is story only, it is not intertwined. The event happened, it doesnt matter how. The issue is with the event, not with how it was presented.


The stupid complain ? It's intertwined with ignorance , please link the topics about the complain I want to see what those people meant

Edit : I was on the forum when WoL came out and I can't remember any of the complains you told be about ... maybe they came later but ...meh w/e
Edited by HardCore on 4/22/2013 4:18 AM PDT
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04/21/2013 01:33 PMPosted by Inprea
Because those worlds weren't a minor threat. We're talking about an entire world dedicated to military production here in a sci-fi setting.


It is not suggested how industrialized those worlds were , nor what they were producing . We talked about this before ... we can't talk about those worlds as if they had their whole surface cowered in industrial parks , because it's just unbelievable , we're talking about a sci-fi universe , but still ....

04/21/2013 01:33 PMPosted by Inprea
A setting in which a major fortress, as seen on Char can be built within a month or less time despite being well within enemy territory meaning no near by supply stations. What worlds do you think made building a major fortress with a nuclear arsenal and a space port as seen in the bone trench possible within such a short time period?


You ignore key elements of the story ...
First of all ... Mengsk was sure he won the war , of course he afforded to be less strict with his resources , plus , Char was a point of high military interest , of course he spent so many resources on securing his trophy world
About how building such a fortress on Char was possible ... one word ... ,,Warp'' ... the implications for warfare are huge ...

And btw ... what enemy territory ? The zerg were obviously defeated ...

04/21/2013 01:33 PMPosted by Inprea
Now to give some evidence of these worlds productive abilities. Do you realize how large a Gorgon is? A Gorgon has a crew of roughly 8,000 people on it. Now A gorgon isn't just packing people though it's carrying fighters and quite often ground units as well. They even have room enough for a research and development department.


This goes to prove my point ... they must be incredibly hard to produce . + They likely house a full battalion on them

If you're going to say, "A Leviathan is too large for a viking to harm." Then a mutalisk would most assuredly be too small to hurt a Gorgon given that they're even smaller then a viking. Yet despite a Gorgon's massive size 12 wraiths and 3 vikings are a serious threat to it when it can't deploy its own fighters. Also with a crew of 8,000 I'd say each Gorgon has a massive number of fighters.


A mutalisk is likely to be too small to do anything to Gorgon bc .... he would probably get sniped in a moment and the guy in the battle-station would continue drinking his coffee ....

But hundreds of flyers may do something ... at least they would neutralize the battle-cruisers flyers (in an epic battle!) and take a lot of fire from the bc .... if not anything else ...

Truly the minotaur class bc's seem to be much more effective against swarms of flyers since receiving the cluster rocket upgrade ... I guess we can consider this lore ,can we ?

I also want to mention that the opening cinematic was a dream.


It was a vision ... a vision of what was to come
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I already explained why , scroll up


It isnt related. Such events can be done off screen. Does that change whether or not they happened? Of course not.


What we saw was Mengsk using a clone of Kerrigan to attack her psionically ... Look at the images again ... What you are saying makes 0 sense ... what , do you think Mengsk was keeping Kerrigan in a jar between missions ? Do you think installing something as complicated as psionic inhibitors is as simple as injecting something in her neck ? What you are saying makes 0 sense ....


Who said it was between missions? He only did that long ago to take her from the confederacy. Using a clone to attack her psionically makes no sense, and it also doesnt fit with what Arcturus says.

04/22/2013 02:54 AMPosted by HardCore
What you say is invalidated by the fact Kerrigan repaired her brain from all the damage caused by human tempering .


which is one of the reasons they decided to use the artifact instead.

I was talking about hots yes ...


I meant in WoL you could do that too, my mistake.

Who the hell is naive enough to think this ? It's not like Tassadar sprung back to life lol , it's something completely different ... I already explained .... lol


It doesnt change one of the common conversations. You still didnt tell me how the voice acting and visual appearance can affect a conversation like this. Same thing with the tychus example. Almost all of the discussions about WoL and HotS stories are like this. Very few would take into account the visual/acting, such as the "believe in me scene" thread.

My God ... this is starting to feel so redundant .... I already explained :p And it makes 0 sense why somebody would feel like that , the argument supporting the complain is illogical , incoherent ... Its like a kid saying ,,ohh no ... now Tassadar is back to life and we are going to play with him again ? awww ... boring !''


Well, like i've said above, MOST of the discussions about SC2's quality is discussing issues such as this. What about people who hate the story because Raynor doesnt ask about tychus's suit (despite him asking roughly 3 times)? How about people hating kerrigan's personality change from when she was infested to de-infested? We even have a thread about "why does raynor want to kill megnsk?"

If i go through the story forum pages, i could endlessly give you examples of story discussions that have nothing to do with the visual/acting. That is the entire point, people can, and do separate the writing from the visual and voice acting.

We also have people who hate the story because of the visual and voice acting. Clearly, people do not like the story just because it looks good.

The stupid complain ? It's intertwined with ignorance , please link the topics about the complain I want to see what those people meant

Edit : I was on the forum when WoL came out and I can't remember any of the complains you told be about ... maybe they came later but ...meh w/e


I linked you gradius's article, he covers a bunch of them.
Edited by Brathearon on 4/22/2013 7:51 AM PDT
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It is not suggested how industrialized those worlds were , nor what they were producing . We talked about this before ... we can't talk about those worlds as if they had their whole surface cowered in industrial parks , because it's just unbelievable , we're talking about a sci-fi universe , but still ....


They are noted as worlds of military production not worlds of canned beans or baby stroller production. One of the worlds is even noted as where the Dominion produces its newest ships. Jontor 2 I doubt I spelled that right. Now you say it's unbelievable but consider Mengsk's behavior in the past. You really think he would hesitate to dedicate an entire world to weapons production? Just think of the mining towns or factory towns in the early sixties. So it is far more likely a massive portion of that planets surface and resources would be dedicated to military supplies.


You ignore key elements of the story ...
First of all ... Mengsk was sure he won the war , of course he afforded to be less strict with his resources , plus , Char was a point of high military interest , of course he spent so many resources on securing his trophy world
About how building such a fortress on Char was possible ... one word ... ,,Warp'' ... the implications for warfare are huge ...

And btw ... what enemy territory ? The zerg were obviously defeated …


Where is your evidence of this? You claim that Mengsk dedicated a massive portion of his resources to building the fortress on Char but where is your evidence? I pointed to the fortress as a sign of how quickly things can be built in the Starcraft universe. As we know all of that requires less then two months to build. That is clearly shown.

Even using faster then light travel it still takes time to deliver resources and fuel to make the jump. As for the point of mentioning enemy territory. There is still feral zerg to consider for one thing. Secondly the point of mentioning enemy territory was to establish that it's unlikely there would be near by supply depots thus the supplies had to be transported over a great distance.


This goes to prove my point ... they must be incredibly hard to produce . + They likely house a full battalion on them


The time between Starcraft 1 and WoL is four years. Thus there was 4 years between Starcraft and WoL to begin production of the gorgons. That is time in which the gorgon and facilities had to be designed and tested, the facilities had to be built and the gorgon had to go into production. During that time they were still able to produce over a dozen gorgons. To produce so many of these high end warships in 4 years does not suggest extremely difficult to produce. It suggest that those production worlds you're so eager to dismiss as not a threat have remarkable production abilities.

Especially when you consider that Mengsk was faulted for wasting large amounts of funds discrediting Raynor. Now what happens whenever Mengsk decides to break the bank and push production to its limit because he knows Kerrigan is coming for him?
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A mutalisk is likely to be too small to do anything to Gorgon bc .... he would probably get sniped in a moment and the guy in the battle-station would continue drinking his coffee ....

But hundreds of flyers may do something ... at least they would neutralize the battle-cruisers flyers (in an epic battle!) and take a lot of fire from the bc .... if not anything else ...

Truly the minotaur class bc's seem to be much more effective against swarms of flyers since receiving the cluster rocket upgrade ... I guess we can consider this lore ,can we ?


I never claimed that a mutalisk wouldn't do anything to a gorgon or a lot of them. I said that the notion several vikings would do nothing to a leviathian is wrong. As I mentioned 12 wraiths and 3 vikings are a serious threat to a gorgon and your average gorgon is going to be packing a lot more then 15 fighters in order to justify a crew of 8,000. Even if the fliers were only able to holds of the mutas that would let the gorgons focus their cannons on the leviathans. It's quite practical that Kerrigan wanted to deny Mengsk as many vikings as she could by taking out those worlds.

After all. If those worlds can go through the entire production process for a dozen gorgons in four years how many vikings could they produce in a month? A gorgon has room for 8000 crew members, a medical wing, cafeteria, recreation space, if the Hyperion is an indicator I'm willing to accept that other war ships lack a recreational space, warp drive, which smaller crafts lack and an engineering section. A viking is a single person fighter that's meant to go out kill things then return to the gorgon or base. So I'd say vikings are a lot easier to mass produce. Wraiths are probably a lot easier to mass produce to but I kind of think they suck.

I'm not sure. I don't remember seeing a minotaur class in action. I thought maybe you were talking about the Hyperion but it's a behemoth class battle-cruiser that has been heavily modified by Rory.


It was a vision ... a vision of what was to come


What makes you think that was a vision and not just a dream of a very angry woman whose suffering from a bit of power withdraw? Especially given how inaccurate it was. In the dream we see Zerg forces landing in the city. That clearly didn't happen as she landed them outside of it. In the dream we see the zerg ripping through areas with civilian style buildings. In the actual invasion Kerrigan avoided those sections. In the dream we only see zerg and dominion forces fighting. In the actual invasion Raynor was there to help her.

If that was a vision it was very inaccurate and could easily been inaccurate about the damage done by a viking unloading on a leviathan.
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