Feel that you got older?No, its not nostalgia

Posts: 1,393
Play Brood War.

Then try to explain it in a way that doesn't involve every major character deciding to put their retard hats on that day.

There are good parts to SC1, the manual for the first game still stands up as super solid sci-fi. Even the very first game did a very good job as setting up each race and paced itself pretty well (well up until the Protoss campaign which was just alright). But it had flaws. Flaws like all of Brood War.
Reply Quote
Posts: 10,296
Well, save for Aldaris' insurrection in "The Insurgent", Episode IV is rather solid storywise. In fact, of all the StarCraft campaigns, it's perhaps the only one with palpable stakes and a clear sense of urgency.
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,613
Well, save for Aldaris' insurrection in "The Insurgent", Episode IV is rather solid storywise. In fact, of all the StarCraft campaigns, it's perhaps the only one with palpable stakes and a clear sense of urgency.


Agreed there. Aldaris annoyed me to no end, since he opted for armed conflict rather then actually telling Zeratul and Artanis of his suspicions with Razagal. This was before Zeratul became a rambling Space Hobo, so I bet even money he would have at least investigated Aldaris' accusation before condemning it outright.

Kind of how DuGalle went from brilliant tactician to slack jawed stupid when the local liaison accuses your childhood friend and second in command of treason. And said Childhood friend and second in command doesn't even bother to go to DuGalle before acting - thus making it look really suspicious.

And the less said about Fenix and Duke dropping their pants (figuratively) to Kerrigan, the better.

Subsourian has a point - the whole narrative hinges on otherwise intelligent characters acting like morons.
Edited by Rust on 4/9/2013 5:09 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 10,296
04/09/2013 05:07 PMPosted by Rust
This was before Zeratul became a rambling Space Hobo


He already was in SC1; most of his lines, including his conversation with Aldaris, didn't need to be so long-winded.
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf on 4/9/2013 6:29 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,996
You are wrong again kid.


kid ? I am twice the man u will ever be and , judging by the way you state your opinion , twice the age

OP : idk , i played sc1 , sc1 bw , wol and hots one after another (took me about 1 week and a half) and i must say , hots was the worst one ... by far (it felt like a cartoon ... naive)

My opinion
Edited by HardCore on 4/10/2013 12:46 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,572
When I played Wings of Liberty, I had such huge expectations, and was horrified at how pedestrian SC2 was. I like many of you thought that it might have been nostalgia. So, I did the same thing the OP did, I watched youtube videos of the original.

And I came to the same conclusion. SC1's story is better in almost every conceivable way. And worse, all the nuanced character that was built into the first game seemed to have been cliched or wiped away in SC2.

To some of you who think its just nostalgia, I've done the same for many of my childhood favorites like the X-Men cartoon and power rangers, and I can definitively say that nostalgia runs only so deep, especially when forced to confront it with new lenses.

SC2's campaign was most definitely fun to play gameplay wise, but the story at least for me was horrendous. I think I had such low expectations after D3, and WOL, that I thought HOTS was better than WOL though. I'm saddened that the story and voice acting isn't up to the standards of the first, but it allowed me to not worship Blizzard on a pedestal.
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,613
Eh. I'd hesitate to call SC1's story "Better".

The first game's plotline is essentially "Zerg and Protoss fight". If not for Raynor, the Terrans would have zero presence in the narrative after their own campaign. Brood War upped the ante, but it still boils down to "Terran and Zerg fight". After their own campaign, the Protoss have very little story presence to the narrative.

SC1's narrative has the purity of simplicity on its side. Since every side only gets 10 missions, you have to hurry up and get on with the story and tell it in the confines of a game engine that supports "Capture the Objective" or "Destroy the Enemy Base(s)" gameplay.

SC2's narrative is already at 49 missions all together - making it just 11 missions shy of SC1 and BW put together. And we've still got 1/3rd of the story left (possibly more. There's always a chance for a secret fourth expansion) to tell. HotS makes in roads by streamlining the experience, but there's still "Fluff" clogging the narrative.

Long ramble short? I don't find SC2 any "inferior" to SC1's story, it's just SC2 has so much time to kill and it spends a frustrating amount of it just spinning its wheels instead of doing something with it.

The Prophecy Missions of WoL were a nice little mini-campaign, but basically just a vehicle to get Protoss Research Points because there's only so many times you can beat up the Tal'darim. It would have been nice if they'd expanded the Revolution storyline to not come to a dead stop after the release of Mengsk's speech. Tosh's missions boiled down to a choice: Vanilla or Vanilla Bean? It's essentially the same flavor, just with minor alterations. The Haven missions? Man, if any colony was too stupid to live...

Like I said, HotS at least benefits from having a tighter rein on the narrative, though the Stukov/Narud missions felt like a time waster given Kerrigan's focus on Mengsk. They keep shoehorning in the Hybrid storyline, even when it doesn't make all that much sense thematically. Technically, a better way to do it would have been Kerrigan makes an attempt at Mengsk and gets browbeat by the Hybrids, thus giving her incentive to go after them.
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,572
SC2, imo, just came down to a lot of retconning, that wasn't earned.

I think they had a pretty clear idea of what kind of awesome stuff they wanted to do, they made the game hanging with too many loose threads because they'll explain stuff later knowing its going to be a three parter, and they just shoved all the characters onto that plot without seeing if that would be organic.

I better not look back on WoL, it will just make me angry lol.

I will say that this "voice" director they hired for the last few games has been AWFUL. Lines that aren't even necessarily written bad (though a fair share are), and by actors who have proven to be good, are just delivered so very strangely.
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,613
The problem is a lot of those "loose" threads will never be picked back up again. Mengsk's little "WHAHAHA EVIL!" speech certainly got forgotten quickly. I doubt we'll see Haven again - though maybe we will. They set up Niadra for LotV, so maybe Haven will be the "Terran Contingent" for the final act.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,996
Long ramble short? I don't find SC2 any "inferior" to SC1's story, it's just SC2 has so much time to kill and it spends a frustrating amount of it just spinning its wheels instead of doing something with it.


I for one found Starcraft 2 WoL to be a worthy successor to Sc1 & Bw (despite some obvious flaws) ... Sadly I cant say the same about Hots , Hots was disappointment after disappointment , redcon after redcon , and it was extremely cartoon like (the exaggerated drama , the textbook villain , the poke-dino-primal-zerg ... ) Hots just didn't feel right ...

Tosh's missions boiled down to a choice: Vanilla or Vanilla Bean? It's essentially the same flavor, just with minor alterations


I disagree , for me it was really important to choose Tosh (the warm , helpful , down to earth friend) and turn down nova (the cold ,arrogant , assassin) And this added a good feel to the game ,at least for me.

The Haven missions? Man, if any colony was too stupid to live...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODzRX1VsH-c&list=UUZ8D7Qvm0YHm0vZKFl-AFdA&index=1

The mutalisks in the end acted exactly like those colonists ... exactly
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,613

I for one found Starcraft 2 WoL to be a worthy successor to Sc1 & Bw (despite some obvious flaws) ... Sadly I cant say the same about Hots , Hots was disappointment after disappointment , redcon after redcon , and it was extremely cartoon like (the exaggerated drama , the textbook villain , the poke-dino-primal-zerg ... ) Hots just didn't feel right ...


I honestly didn't see much evidence of recons in HotS. Zerus is a big sticking point for some people, but no planet is going to have the same climate after several thousand years, and I can swallow the idea that the Xel'naga "missed some" in regards to the Zerg. Heck, you could even say the Primal Zerg are escaped experiments by the Xel'naga when the Overmind decided to wipe them out.

The history of the Zerg is a bit of a bitter pill to swallow...but not much of one when you understand that this is their history...as told by the ones who were left behind and were barely sapient at the time.

Beyond that? Only Stukov's "Oh hai gaiz" resurrection (For those that never played the N64 exclusive mission) really sticks out as a blatant recon. Well that and Kerrigan suddenly developing a soul again - but I was never a fan of how she went evil for "reasons" in Brood War. So seeing her be toned down a bit was not that bad.

As for the textbook villain, Mengsk has always been one. Seriously, the guy is probably the least effective despot I've ever seen. At least the Confederacy had enough sense to not put the boot heel too firmly against the neck of the populace.

Though I do wish more had gone into the kind of "favors" Mengsk promised/called in to assemble the fleet at the end of Brood War. I suspect that's how he found himself custodian of the Hybrids (Duran did say they'd been seeded across the sector), but some clarification on that point would have been nice.


I disagree , for me it was really important to choose Tosh (the warm , helpful , down to earth friend) and turn down nova (the cold ,arrogant , assassin) And this added a good feel to the game ,at least for me.


I'm not disagreeing with you there - I adored Tosh. He's the only one that helps Raynor through the Prophecy Missions and the guy's got a lot of very good insight. Probably my favorite character in WoL. I'm just saying in terms of what the missions ultimately lead to - Spectre vs Ghost - the distinction is purely superfluous.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODzRX1VsH-c&list=UUZ8D7Qvm0YHm0vZKFl-AFdA&index=1

The mutalisks in the end acted exactly like those colonists ... exactly


Pretty much. Honestly, I found the most face palming moment being right after Outbreak, where Matt raises the perfectly acceptable suggestion that the colonists may still be infected, and Raynor and the Doctor look at him like he's grown a second head.

Dammit Jim, stop thinking with your groin for one second here...

I always opt to wipe out the colony. It may not be "canon" but Raynor has enough experience with the Zerg not to screw around with it like he does in the canon version. Plus the ultimate revelation that the Doctor was infected just adds a bit of menace to her attempts to get close to Jim. That just strikes me as classic Brood War style Kerrigan there.
Edited by Rust on 4/10/2013 3:24 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,996
04/10/2013 03:21 AMPosted by Rust
I honestly didn't see much evidence of recons in HotS. Zerus is a big sticking point for some people, but no planet is going to have the same climate after several thousand years, and I can swallow the idea that the Xel'naga "missed some" in regards to the Zerg. Heck, you could even say the Primal Zerg are escaped experiments by the Xel'naga when the Overmind decided to wipe them out.


I'm basically going to try to avoid a 20 page discussion (no insult Rust , I am sure a discussion with you would be intelligent and worth the while but I am kind of tiered at the moment)

In the end I can use a forced and stretched logic to lube my throat and swallow that bitter pill Blizzard want's us to swallow (in regards to the whole primal zerg thing , which I find completely illogical) but the thing is ... the spirit of the lore has been damaged beyond repair , the feel of the game ...

04/10/2013 03:21 AMPosted by Rust
As for the textbook villain, Mengsk has always been one. Seriously, the guy is probably the least effective despot I've ever seen.


I'm talking about the way Mengsk worked in Hots , it was just pathetic ...

Mengsk does this , does that ,everything explodes in his face .... textbook cartoon villain .
I didn't expect him to pull some stunts out of Ner'zul's book (reference to the dark lord of the dead from Warcraft 3 ---> extremely intelligent plot ) But the way he acted was a total disappointment ...

Though I do wish more had gone into the kind of "favors" Mengsk promised/called in to assemble the fleet at the end of Brood War. I suspect that's how he found himself custodian of the Hybrids (Duran did say they'd been seeded across the sector), but some clarification on that point would have been nice.


At first when I saw Mengsk playing with hybrids I wall like ,,omg , Blizzard has such an intelligent and complex plot , there are a billion possibilities , is Mengsk a puppet of the dark one ? is he DURAN ? what the hell is happening here ? omg I want wait to buy hots and find out'' ... and when I bought Hots I was so disappointed to see the plot was doing nothing like that ... the plot was as profound as a cartoon ... it completely eliminated that subtle feeling of ,,God , I'm going against something I don't even understand ... But I'm going to make my stand , God help me ''

I found the most face palming moment being right after Outbreak, where Matt raises the perfectly acceptable suggestion that the colonists may still be infected, and Raynor and the Doctor look at him like he's grown a second head.

Dammit Jim, stop thinking with your groin for one second here...

[quote]Plus the ultimate revelation that the Doctor was infected just adds a bit of menace to her attempts to get close to Jim. That just strikes me as classic Brood War style Kerrigan there.


Have you seen her ? She is no ordinary infested , she was something else ... something Dark , something we could hardly understand ... something alien ... zerg . Tosh talks about her later ,,something made of honey'' ... Was she a metamorph spreading the infection ? Was she a free zerg (that would explain why she didn't infest Jim with that kiss)
We don't find such subtle plots in hots ... and we don't see older , very good plot lines ,put to good use (Example : Duran/Narud , I've waited years to see that plot line turn in something epic ... in the end all i got was a cool animation and a bitter taste in my mouth ... nothing beyond that ,nothing profound , nothing like we see in previous Blizzard story writing ...
Edited by HardCore on 4/10/2013 4:36 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,079
04/09/2013 04:36 PMPosted by ElDestructo
Bottom line is that the WoL campaign simply had better writing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhckuhUxcgA

Time to kick this revolution...into OVAHDRIVE cowboy!

...

In all seriousness though, I'm not going to deny that BW had a drop in writing quality. The examples Rust already pointed out:

Agreed there. Aldaris annoyed me to no end, since he opted for armed conflict rather then actually telling Zeratul and Artanis of his suspicions with Razagal. This was before Zeratul became a rambling Space Hobo, so I bet even money he would have at least investigated Aldaris' accusation before condemning it outright.

Kind of how DuGalle went from brilliant tactician to slack jawed stupid when the local liaison accuses your childhood friend and second in command of treason. And said Childhood friend and second in command doesn't even bother to go to DuGalle before acting - thus making it look really suspicious.


are pretty pathetic. But then again, Bill Roper didn't write Brood War like he did the original SC.
Edited by Retloclive on 4/10/2013 4:38 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,613
nothing beyond that ,nothing profound , nothing like we see in previous Blizzard story writing ...


If Cataclysm and Diablo 3 proved anything, it's that Blizzard has suffered a severe case of "Brain Drain" in their partnership with Activision. HotS is a step in the right direction all things taken together (Tighter narrative, an actual focus, acknowledgment of history even if that acknowledgment isn't acted upon...), but yeah it still is a diminished Blizzard product.

I'm not expecting a masterpiece here - heck, I'll be happy if we get "Tiberian Sun" quality in the story after everything is said and done. But I will say this:

WoL and HotS are still lightyears ahead of the utter garbage and disappointment that is Diablo 3 or the present WoW Narrative (Though I can't speak for Mists. I gave up when they tried to sell me a WarCraft 2 Hero Unit that appears in a single mission is suddenly the Ender of All Things after they finally took down Arthas).
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,079
Not to mention, WoWs been heavily favoring Horde lore ever since Arthas was defeated (most likely to build up the eventual raid to kill Garrosh), but it's still kind of sad. Especially after dealing with the "Thrall show" all throughout Cataclysm.

As for MoP, it has a few bright spots. Like the lore build-up to the Thunder King raid was actually pretty decent. It's just a shame that he's nothing more then an expansion fodder villain and not a character like Arthas that was built up over time.

Garrosh however is another story. It was clear in Cataclysm that Blizzard wanted to go the Hellscream route and redeem his arrogance seen in Wrath of the Lich King, but so many fans hated his guts already that no one cared about his Cataclysm cameos where he actually started doing something honorable. So Blizzard just threw out all their previous plans for him and just decided to make him the BigBad of MoP, because the fans wanted to kill him so badly. In the end, his Cataclysm scenes just seem...out of character now.

But it's still a step forward. MoP's build up to Garrosh being the final villain has actually been ok so far.
Edited by Retloclive on 4/10/2013 5:04 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,996
I agree with everything , but ...

04/10/2013 04:42 AMPosted by Rust
WoL and HotS are still lightyears ahead of the utter garbage and disappointment


Yes but I for one feel like WoL is lightyears ahead of Hots ...
Edited by HardCore on 4/10/2013 5:03 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,613

Garrosh however is another story. It was clear in Cataclysm that Blizzard wanted to go the Hellscream route and redeem his arrogance seen in Wrath of the Lich King, but so many fans hated his guts already that no one cared about his Cataclysm cameos where he actually started doing something honorable. So Blizzard just threw out all their previous plans for him and just decided to make him the BigBad of MoP, because the fans wanted to kill him so badly. In the end, his Cataclysm scenes just seem...out of character now.

But it's still a step forward. MoP's build up to Garrosh being the final villain has actually been ok so far.


Seriously? They're going after Golden Boy but not the Lich Queen of Lordaeron? I didn't stick around for long with Catacylsm (Got to Level 85, realized its the same end game I've been doing since Burning Crusade, and what was the point of grinding for gear I'm going to replace in six months and fight an enemy I find severely trumped up in order of power level and significance), but I saw enough to know Sylvanas has taken a page from Kerrigan and decided to just kill the world because screw you that's why.

I seriously don't know why the Horde puts up with the Forsaken - especially not after the Wrathgate. Though fair being fair, I don't understand the decision to turn the Scourge into the Zerg rather then just make them the undead fueled by the awesome power of a single spellcaster they were initially made out to be. But that kind of destroys the whole idea behind the Forsaken, since at any moment the Lich King should have been able to 'discontinue" their existence.

Ow. There I go and give myself a headache trying to enforce some semblance of magical law on a Blizzard property.
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,079
04/10/2013 05:19 AMPosted by Rust
Seriously? They're going after Golden Boy but not the Lich Queen of Lordaeron?


They went with what the fanbase was craving at the time since no one cared about Garrosh's "character development" moments in Cataclysm.

As for Sylvannas, there's no doubt she's being built up to be an actual pure villain. I wouldn't be surprised if she becomes a raid boss somewhere down the road.

I didn't stick around for long with Catacylsm (Got to Level 85, realized its the same end game I've been doing since Burning Crusade, and what was the point of grinding for gear I'm going to replace in six months and fight an enemy I find severely trumped up in order of power level and significance), but I saw enough to know Sylvanas has taken a page from Kerrigan and decided to just kill the world because screw you that's why.


Oh god...end of Cataclysm was terrible. Nothing but Dragon Soul raids for 6+ freaking months. It wasn't even that good of a raid.
Edited by Retloclive on 4/11/2013 6:04 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 261
I for one found Starcraft 2 WoL to be a worthy successor to Sc1 & Bw


Hahahahaha

Credibility, yours just hit zero.


What a well-thought and articulated point. "You're wrong because I say you're wrong. Also you now have zero credibility so I can reject the FOUNDATIONS of your arguments before you get to the conclusion. Because you disagree with me, I will never listen to you."
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]