StarCraft® II

-> Request for better story writing in LotV

I agree entirely with the OP, although I'm not sure there's much to be said at this point that hasn't been said several times over in other threads on the same topic.

I'm skeptical of the use of polling to defend the quality of a story; this seems to me to come very close to equating quality with popularity, and I think that's anything but the case for most entertainment media. Nevertheless, I'm kind of curious if the degree of disappointment/criticism voiced about SC2 here is noticeably greater than whatever criticism arose of SC1 / BW after their releases; anyone know of any polls that'd speak to that?
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A huge fleet of battlecruisers would be needed to take on a pack of leviathans .... I already said this ...


Yes you did but huge is a vague term and may not be accurate. Where are you getting your information for how many battle cruisers it takes to bring down a Leviathan? We also don't know how many battle cruisers were produced in comparison to the number of Leviathans. Many leviathans may be 7 while many battle cruisers could be 15 for all we know.


Most likely a couple of days passed between events ...

I'd imagine battlecruisers are considerably hard to make (and expensive) ... and I doubt those facilities could spamm tens of bc's in a couple of days (enough to take on the leviathans and the swarm)


I'm not sure about that Abathur mentions that they were on zerus for days just after the first mission. Which kind of surprised me as all I can assume is Kerrigan was up to something between missions.


Possible but highly unlikely in my opinion . It would be stupid of Valerian to not take his part of the fleet with him ... if not anything else , at least as leverage ... (+ In the Hots campaign we see he has the resources to take care of a considerably big fleet)

And I doubt Valerian is stupid , he seems an educated man , and he seems to have gathered a bit of experience after 2/3 of the second great war ....


We only saw Warfield use ten ships. Also keep in mind how easily his research facility fail. That wasn't the defenses of someone who had a great many ships to use. It doesn't appear he took them with him.


Again , Kerrigan said she needs just 1% of her forces to do this ... And I doubt this was only overconfidence .


Kerrigan was talking about drop pods arriving on the surface not Leviathans. Not that 1% of her forces would be sufficient to hold a blockade and attack the planet.


What Warfield did was throw a fleet of capital ships , one after another , into swarms of scourge ... This is pure incompetence (lol , he also failed hard when he tried to invade char)

He is supposed to be an experienced general , but he does amateur mistakes (what he did is the equivalent of me sending a ton of bc's one after another to attack 20 sporecrawlers)
And he kept on going ... losing ,and losing the same god damn way ....

I would have understood one strategical mistake that only added to his experience ... but seriously , doing the same mistake over and over and over again (when it's obvious what ur doing had no chance of working) ...

Erwin Rommel (one of the most brilliant minds of the Second World War) himself did some really stupid attacks on heavily fortified bunkers during the battle for Africa ... and then he never made those mistakes again , ever ....


Rommel was considered a bold, dynamic cunning, general and honestly a bit insane considering he would go into battle in his officers car so he could see what was happening and direct his forces. Warfield isn't a Rommel. Warfield is a veteran military leader that became stuck in a certain mind set and could escape from it. Think of the American civial war and how many men were sent into battle using Napoleonic tactics despite the increasing accuracy of rifles and cannons. Think of the difficulty people had adapting from trench warfare to mobile artillery aka tanks.

These were both mistakes made again and again. Just like some generals still wanted to build battleships after Pearl Harbor. The military is conservative by its nature and it's very easy for older generals like Warfield to become locked into a way of thinking.
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Regardless if he did or not , Kerrigan surprised him screaming ,,EVERYONE COME BACK SO I CAN HIND BEHIND YOU'' ... he was probably doing it for a while now (It was the most obvious thing that Kerrigan was going to move on Korhal any second now , mostly after she broke Jim lose ...)
So probably most of Mengsk's fleet must have been on Korhal (what he had left of it ... probably less than 1/3 of what he did when the second great war started)


I don't agree. If he did indeed have warships protecting those planets then destroying them early makes sense so they can't rush to his aid later. Plus there is still the issue of those world's production potentials. You can claim their output isn't significant but Kerrigan would clearly disagree. Even if it was low if you have a chance to pound your enemy's centers of production you do it.


Haha , at the moment I am reading the book ,,12 years with Hitler'' (Hitler's secretary talks in detail about him and the war ... )

But try to look from my point of view ?

Izsha has no military experience and has an infantile mentality that has been proven wrong many times during the campaign ... - fact

Zagara has much military experience and is a highly evolved (intelligent) brood mother ... (tho you are right ,she does tend to grow ... overconfident , although that may just be excitement ) -fact

Izsha has a correct strategical point of view - presumption


I agree but I don't put more stock in Zagara's word then Izsha's. As I find such over confident talk and the fact that she still has much to learn make Zagara just as suspect as izsha's inexperienced mind. Plus for Kerrigan to warn Zagara that she's being over confident shows there is a chance of failure. That and even with what she said about that 1% she also says that the fight into the capital will be the toughest battle of her life.

Though from a game play mechanic I don't really agree with her. I had more trouble with Nerub and feeling constantly rushed.


Uhhh we see large numbers of zerg dropping in pods after Kerrigan destroys the gates of Korhal . Those army's could have stopped and helped her finish the job ... but they didn't , they moved on Korhal ... If Kerrigan would have been in any true difficulty she would have requested help ... but she wasn't , she was actually helping her swarm ... This is what I meant


You have a point. I will say though we also saw many pods bursting on the battlefield and those pods only begin landing successfully after Kerrigan has secured the first base. She has created some safe zones by then where they won't be instantly ripped apart by dominion ground forces.


She made that blocade so that transport ship's loaded with troops , equipment and resources wouldn't be able to pass ... Cutting your enemy's supply rout , it's a basic war tactic .

Again I doubt those planets would have produced enough Battlecruisers to challenge a pack of leviathans ... And you don't even know what kind of ships those worlds were producing ? maybe 80% of their production was made of transport ships , vikings , medivacs , etc

In my opinion those worlds were burned for no reason .


Yet you also have to manage your war resources. Using two groups of leviathans to guard against a minor force would just be wasteful. As for you not believing those worlds were significant. Kerrigan apparently would disagree as she saw fit to have them attacked. It seems likely that she would know more about those worlds and their production ability then us and thus be in a better position to judge.

Well the writers would be. Now as long as the writers want to set it up so that Kerrigan has changed from the original Queen of Blades then it seems safe to say those worlds had a significant ability to influence the war.


EDIT : brb in a few hours


No problem. Not to be rude but this is kind of deviating towards being boring. I don't believe we're going to find a common ground.
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04/08/2013 01:35 PMPosted by Inprea
Yes you did but huge is a vague term and may not be accurate. Where are you getting your information for how many battle cruisers it takes to bring down a Leviathan?


In WoL we face a leviathan and as I said , it takes a whole fleet only yo take 1 on . ( so in blizzard's eyes a leviathan is just as strong as about .... 8-12 battlecruisers)

Besides that , a leviathan is huge compared to a battlecruiser , and the fact a leviathan is a nest for an army of flyers ...

I'm not sure about that Abathur mentions that they were on zerus for days just after the first mission. Which kind of surprised me as all I can assume is Kerrigan was up to something between missions.


As I said , a couple of days between the missions ... And about what Kerrigan was doing , she was probably just taking care of her war macro and reinforcing her grip on the hive mind

We only saw Warfield use ten ships. Also keep in mind how easily his research facility fail. That wasn't the defenses of someone who had a great many ships to use. It doesn't appear he took them with him.


Just 10 ships? that's a whole fleet :O ... (those were capital ships btw , not normal minotaur bc's )

And I didn't understand what you wanted to say with the rest of the statement . sorry

04/08/2013 01:35 PMPosted by Inprea
Kerrigan was talking about drop pods arriving on the surface not Leviathans. Not that 1% of her forces would be sufficient to hold a blockade and attack the planet.


She said she only needs 1% of her army on the ground to do this . And about the blockade ... she had multiple reasons to do this ...

1 : stopping supply's from pouring in Korhal
2 : stopping any random fleets (truth be told , you never can know for sure)
3 : keeping a large part of ur forces back is a simple strategic necessity ...
If Kerrigan had rushed all her leviathans to Korhal there is a strong chance they would have been destroyed by Mengsk's psi-toy ... so keeping them back proved to be a wise move ...

and ... as she said , she wanted to preserve the swarm in case she failed ... so i guess this is point nr.4

Warfield is a veteran military leader that became stuck in a certain mind set and could escape from it. Think of the American civial war and how many men were sent into battle using Napoleonic tactics despite the increasing accuracy of rifles and cannons. Think of the difficulty people had adapting from trench warfare to mobile artillery aka tanks.

These were both mistakes made again and again.


I understand what you're trying to say , but I think what happened on Char has more to do with bad story writing than certain psychological patterns .

What happened in the last missions of WoL was different than what happened in the ,,10 bc's incident'' ... what happened in WoL was realistic (a realistic strategy mistake) ,but what happened in Hots was not ... 10 capital ships , one after another ... think about it ...

I don't agree. If he did indeed have warships protecting those planets then destroying them early makes sense so they can't rush to his aid later. Plus there is still the issue of those world's production potentials. You can claim their output isn't significant but Kerrigan would clearly disagree. Even if it was low if you have a chance to pound your enemy's centers of production you do it.


Maybe I'm retarded ... but please explain this logic :

Kerrigan decides to spare many lives by not dropping smack down in the middle of Korhal ... but this increases the difficulty of what already is the greatest battle of her life by a huge amount ... Then she decides to avoid the civilian centers , again this increases the difficulty by a big amount ... so she takes all these huge risks to save some civies

But then she burns some worlds that posed a minor risk , killing millions of civilians (most likely ...)

I tried to make sense of this , trust me I tried ... but when I felt what I felt in my hear (disappointment ... sadness ... ) I knew this was over ... I knew this game's story was total b...
Edited by HardCore on 4/8/2013 4:29 PM PDT
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Yet you also have to manage your war resources. Using two groups of leviathans to guard against a minor force would just be wasteful. As for you not believing those worlds were significant. Kerrigan apparently would disagree as she saw fit to have them attacked. It seems likely that she would know more about those worlds and their production ability then us and thus be in a better position to judge.

Well the writers would be. Now as long as the writers want to set it up so that Kerrigan has changed from the original Queen of Blades then it seems safe to say those worlds had a significant ability to influence the war.


As I said , she had many reasons to keep those leviathans back ...

1: keeping resources from pouring into Korhal ...
2:If she had rushed with those leviathans in the first place , she would have lost them to the psi-weapon ..
3:she wanted to preserve the swarm if she lost

I already explained in the post above what I think about what she decided to do in Korhal and what she decided to do with those worlds ,and how wrong that feels for me (and how terribly disappointed I am)

No problem. Not to be rude but this is kind of deviating towards being boring. I don't believe we're going to find a common ground.


Regardless of the outcome ,this was a good experience for me ... I saw what someone else thinks ...

The conclusion : I myself said the exact same things to myself while I was playing the campaign ...
I desperately wanted the campaign to be good ... I was trying to justify in my mind all the redcons and poor storywriting ... In the end I could justify everything ... but the disappointment and the sadness remained in my heart ... Hots's story is just naive ... just cartoonish .... This is what I think .... I truly wish this would be different but it isn't , blizzard screwed it up , big time

My opinion ...

Thank you for the intelligent conversation Inprea
Edited by HardCore on 4/8/2013 4:27 PM PDT
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My opinion ...

Thank you for the intelligent conversation Inprea


You're welcome. It was nice but I'll just say you have more debate in you then I do when it comes to this particular subject.
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Dear Blizzard,

Though I'm not a fanboi who loves EVERYTHING you do (panda bears? really?) I thoroughly enjoyed the full campaign of both WOL and HOTS. WOL had more filler being the main game, whereas HOTS was more streamlined.

The cutscenes have generated awe, the dialog has prompted both laughter and sadness, and the plot has given me both curiosity during and satisfaction at the ending.

Please keep up the good work, despite threads like this one.

If, however, you are prepared to make a full campaign with decision trees and alternate dialog that might take 10 years instead of 3, perhaps you can fulfill the OP's wish. It will come at the cost of my own wish, however, to seeLOTV released in a timely fashion.


Yes, Blizzard, please keep up the good work, but please improve on HotS's story telling. I do not think that you will need 10 years to do that. If you cannot come up with all the wonderful extra features of WoL in 3 years, then, alas, we can't do much. But if you can...please do.

Shouldn't expansions be bigger and better than the original game, and ADD aspects, not take them away?
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Good luck.
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DaveDroid,

You may simply have been misinformed:

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=403183
--First sentence, and then please read on.

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=405290
--First sentence, and then please read on.


Oh no again you are the one that is misinformed. These are two individuals who made threads just like you did here. What I said was about team liquid MEMBERS. ie as in more than the couple of elite but never the less loud minority of that site.

Here is the poll you are looking for.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402932

The majority rate the story as better than wings and decent or excellent overall. And team liquid is the most skeptical site for these things. Amazon and Metacritic has far better reviews on the story and those are usually the less biased and more mature gamers.


I dont want to validate everything that you are saying because I dont necessarily agree. I do want to redirect forum opinion of who Team Liquid is. For some reason I understand Team Liquid to be a brood war validated hardcore micro-gamestyle cult, essentially macro-programmers and bots

Dont know why, can anyone validate?
Edited by BLOCKS on 4/10/2013 1:13 PM PDT
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HOTS surpasses wings story by multiple scales.

Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean the story wasn't good or that their direction after wings (fan based via Q &A and book inspired material) should change.


Really? I thought that there was much more depth in the character relationships in wings.

Hanson potentially ends up hating you, Horner is disappointed in your leadership skills, encounters with tychus constantly hint at ulterior motives...

I loved the primal zerg, I thought dealing with warfield and narud was pretty sick, but the character relationships in wings are 100X better than the ones in swarm.
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Wrong. Raging teenagers find stories that involve romances, emotions or any form of deep level communication (ie via facial expression) "Cringworthy" "icky" " and cheezy".

These folks would rather watch the other person slash and hack his/her enemies as default response and be like the one dimensional evil characters that litters the low rated TV and movies these days.


Your second paragraph is a more accurate description of Kerrigan and what the game is about.
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How shameless and lame do some of you shallow mined critics get?


You don't need to be a critic to become such , you are an example

LOL ,shallow minded ? you have like 3 ideas you spamm over and over again :

-Hots was amazing storywise
-Anyone disagreeing with this is 12
-The previous 2 statements are true even if logic and reason say otherwise

The scenes were just too cartoonish and the dialogue cheesy at some points.


Cartoonish and cheesy ? you mean like Hots's story :D yes
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No I said wings is cartoonish and cheesy.


I say Hots is cartoonish and cheesy :p

04/12/2013 03:05 PMPosted by DaveDroid
Is that your best come back?


No :3

edit : brb in a few hours
Edited by HardCore on 4/12/2013 3:34 PM PDT
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