StarCraft® II

Free siege mode?

Why was this needed?
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unseiged tank are the !@#$.

beside it's stupide that a tank can't tank.
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Blizzard gave reasons when they released the patch.

Go fetch it and find out.
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Why was this needed?


To reduce the build up time for mech against Protoss.

Counterpoint: Why was Siege Tech ever needed?

There were more than a few upgrades that existed in Brood War for the sake of existing rather than any actual need for them, and Siege Tech was one of those upgrades that made it into StarCraft II.

The real purpose of an upgrade should be to delay a part of a unit's power in cases where the unit is available before it's final state is really balanced......

Take Marines for example: Marines are upgraded and supported (Medivacs) in such a way that they are useful for the entire game, without being overpowered at the beginning. If Marines started the game with Stimpacks and combat shields, Zerg and Protoss would stand no chance against Terran's early Marines. The same goes for every unit with unique upgrades: Chargelots, Blink-Stalkers, Cracklings/Speedlings, Speed-Roaches, Speed-Banelings, Blue-Flame Hellions (helps balance early harrassment), etc.

Upgrades delay a unit's optimal power until a point where it becomes reasonable to deal with. That is the main purpose of an upgrade.

Now the main purpose of a Tank has ALWAYS been its Siege Mode. The Tank itself is priced and balanced for Siege Mode, and without that Siege Mode the Siege Tank is not worth building. The Siege-Tech upgrade was never needed to prevent a timing push or to delay Siege Tanks until a point where they are reasonable. Siege Tanks were already manageable at the earliest time a tech-lab Factory can be completed.

The Siege Tech upgrade was a hold-over from Brood War where every single ability on every unit that was not specifically a caster needed to be researched: Burrow, Spider Mines, Disruption Web, Yamato Cannon, Lockdown, Cloak (Ghost), and Cloak (Wraith). The casters at that time only ever had one ability that did not require research.
StarCraft II is balanced differently from Brood War. If an upgrade is not required to make a unit or ability more reasonable when the unit first becomes available, then that upgrade simply does not exist. This is why upgrades such as Hallucination have been removed. Siege Tech was just one of those useless upgrades that needed pruning.
Edited by TerranicII on 4/20/2013 9:06 PM PDT
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So where is free sling? Free roach speed? Free hydra speed? free range? Why not just make it so we start with burrow?

unsieged tanks are useless, and early sieged tanks are too strong against Z.

I'm getting annoyed that terran keep getting new toys, and annoying utility units for more harass that they honestly didn't need, marine/tank pushes are just ridiculous TvZ now, if its not that, its hellbats, why was this needed as well? It just hard counters sling , and transorming hellbats turns them into biological so medivacs can heal them.
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So where is free sling? Free roach speed? Free hydra speed? free range? Why not just make it so we start with burrow?

unsieged tanks are useless, and early sieged tanks are too strong against Z.

I'm getting annoyed that terran keep getting new toys, and annoying utility units for more harass that they honestly didn't need, marine/tank pushes are just ridiculous TvZ now, if its not that, its hellbats, why was this needed as well? It just hard counters sling , and transorming hellbats turns them into biological so medivacs can heal them.


different races are different, get over it.

Also early siege isn't why your losing, your losing because you are making mistakes.
Edited by Terok on 4/20/2013 9:31 PM PDT
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04/20/2013 09:28 PMPosted by Meiya
So where is free sling? Free roach speed? Free hydra speed? free range? Why not just make it so we start with burrow?

Because all of those things are needed to keep the earliest possible Roach/Zergling/etc cases from getting out of hand.

04/20/2013 09:28 PMPosted by Meiya
unsieged tanks are useless, and early sieged tanks are too strong against Z.

Siege Tanks are only difficult to deal with after they accrue enough support units or enough mass of their own, and Siege Tanks are not a good offensive unit on their own. The Siege Tanks themselves cannot kill you at any point where Siege Tech would have made a difference.
Early Siege Tanks will not cost you a game unless you are all-inning against the Terran base, and coincidentally, the Blink-Stalker all in is actually part of the reason why the Siege Tank upgrade was removed.
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I'm getting annoyed that terran keep getting new toys, and annoying utility units for more harass that they honestly didn't need, marine/tank pushes are just ridiculous TvZ now, if its not that, its hellbats, why was this needed as well? It just hard counters sling , and transorming hellbats turns them into biological so medivacs can heal them.


At several points during the beta, terran players (myself included) were wondering why the terran midgame seemed to be getting stronger while the late-game wasn't addressed as much as it probably should have.

The seige research removal, according to David Kim, was supposed to affect mainly TvP. I'm not sure how he thought it wouldn't affect the other matchups. I do miss reaper battlefield awareness, they made great spots for tanks on the high ground. But without seige mode research, I don't think it would go so well, it would be very strong at the early game.
Edited by JorgeCis on 4/20/2013 9:45 PM PDT
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So where is free sling? Free roach speed? Free hydra speed? free range? Why not just make it so we start with burrow?

unsieged tanks are useless, and early sieged tanks are too strong against Z.

I'm getting annoyed that terran keep getting new toys, and annoying utility units for more harass that they honestly didn't need, marine/tank pushes are just ridiculous TvZ now, if its not that, its hellbats, why was this needed as well? It just hard counters sling , and transorming hellbats turns them into biological so medivacs can heal them.


Yea I've never won a game with an early two siege tank push against zerg in HotS. But I lose to un-upgraded roach or bane pushes all the time. Herp derp.
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beside it's stupide that a tank can't tank.


I agree
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Why was this needed?


Siege mode used to do A LOT more damage. It originally one-shot marines.

It's since been nerfed to oblivion (like all terran units).
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04/20/2013 11:48 PMPosted by BobTheSCV
Why was this needed?


Siege mode used to do A LOT more damage. It originally one-shot marines.

It's since been nerfed to oblivion (like all terran units).

oblivion was not that bad..
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04/20/2013 11:57 PMPosted by SniperwD


Siege mode used to do A LOT more damage. It originally one-shot marines.

It's since been nerfed to oblivion (like all terran units).

oblivion was not that bad..


STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!
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oblivion was not that bad..


STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!

i was referring to the movie LOL but that works to :D
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It was to help mech tvp. trolololololololololololollolol
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So where is free sling? Free roach speed? Free hydra speed? free range? Why not just make it so we start with burrow?

unsieged tanks are useless, and early sieged tanks are too strong against Z.

I'm getting annoyed that terran keep getting new toys, and annoying utility units for more harass that they honestly didn't need, marine/tank pushes are just ridiculous TvZ now, if its not that, its hellbats, why was this needed as well? It just hard counters sling , and transorming hellbats turns them into biological so medivacs can heal them.


Terran already had way more upgrades then zerg in WOL i counted it once it was like 14 more upgrades overall in WOL so cutting down a bit is a good thing and gives TvP mech a boost and zerg is not going to die to any early tank push anyway.
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Both Terran and Protoss gained buffs to their early-game defense. Protoss can now get out the MSC and use Nexus cannons extremely early, rendering early aggression much more defensible.

In return, Terran got earlier mech.

So why are you whining?
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There were more than a few upgrades that existed in Brood War for the sake of existing rather than any actual need for them, and Siege Tech was one of those upgrades that made it into StarCraft II.

The real purpose of an upgrade should be to delay a part of a unit's power in cases where the unit is available before it's final state is really balanced......


In broodwar you actually had a choice once the machine shop was done (basically tech lab for factory). You either get: siege mode, spider mines, or vulture speed.

It was not JUST to delay tech, it was also to give it an order of choice.
- get mines first for map control?
- get vulture speed first for better scouting/offensive map control?
- get siege mode for a timing attack, to hold off a timing attack, or to bolster your defense?

It was a choice. In SC2, tech lab factory allows for tanks, and for blue flame. You don't really choose here. However, in SC2, you can choose reactor or tech lab which makes a big difference in what you will be making.

I just wanted to point out that it was not a useless upgrade in brood war.
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So where is free sling? Free roach speed? Free hydra speed? free range? Why not just make it so we start with burrow?

unsieged tanks are useless, and early sieged tanks are too strong against Z.

I'm getting annoyed that terran keep getting new toys, and annoying utility units for more harass that they honestly didn't need, marine/tank pushes are just ridiculous TvZ now, if its not that, its hellbats, why was this needed as well? It just hard counters sling , and transorming hellbats turns them into biological so medivacs can heal them.


because idk... herpfestors and swarm hosts get burrow regardless of the upgrade?
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There were more than a few upgrades that existed in Brood War for the sake of existing rather than any actual need for them, and Siege Tech was one of those upgrades that made it into StarCraft II.

The real purpose of an upgrade should be to delay a part of a unit's power in cases where the unit is available before it's final state is really balanced......


In broodwar you actually had a choice once the machine shop was done (basically tech lab for factory). You either get: siege mode, spider mines, or vulture speed.

It was not JUST to delay tech, it was also to give it an order of choice.
- get mines first for map control?
- get vulture speed first for better scouting/offensive map control?
- get siege mode for a timing attack, to hold off a timing attack, or to bolster your defense?

It was a choice. In SC2, tech lab factory allows for tanks, and for blue flame. You don't really choose here. However, in SC2, you can choose reactor or tech lab which makes a big difference in what you will be making.

I just wanted to point out that it was not a useless upgrade in brood war.

No, the upgrade itself was useless.

The real "choice" was making the units, just like it is in Starcraft II. Siege Tech was just an unnecessary upgrade that delayed Siege Tanks further.
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