StarCraft® II

Deep late-game PvZ (Return of the Mothership)

04/23/2013 09:21 AMPosted by BlackAdder
If my Void Rays ever get caught by fungals, I lose them all and I lose the game right there.

Do you know if you can you recall when fungalled?


You can. I stopped doing the Void Ray fly-ins as soon as Zergs figured out that if you just Abduct the MSC, you lose all of the Void Rays.

So, I can very easily lose my MSC to an Abduct, fail the recall and get chain fungaled to death, or continue to lose Void Rays to Abducts into Hydras. It's quite simply not worth the risk.
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I was kinda hoping the future of lategame pvz was going to be dt drops -> recall back and add archons to your mix which then go and buffer locusts for your ht/tempest mix.

mscore + mothership so you can have 2 pronged drops at no risk. edit: lame, you can't have both at once.
Edited by Artisian on 4/23/2013 12:45 PM PDT
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You are also watching the replay while having full map vision and the knowledge of foresight. During the game, I have no idea if a Muta switch is coming, where his static defenses are and where his army is sitting. If my Void Rays ever get caught by fungals, I lose them all and I lose the game right there.


Wow. I wasn't going to point this out because it makes you look really bad, but if you want to have this conversation fine. Why don't you know if he is doing some kind of tech switch? Is it because you have 3 observers. 1 with your army, 1 sitting idle by your robo, and 1 just kinda sitting in the middle of the map? How simple it would have been to park an observer in his main witch has 0 spores. And in order for a muta switch to occur wouldnt you have to kill non locust units?

You blind built voidray templar, riding the skytoss/templar is op bandwagon. Why did you build carriers and tempest? Seriously this is as blind following of a build as it gets.

The only reason you didnt win this is because you didnt maintain your scouting and you made some pretty bad decisions, or rather didnt make any good decisions. There is 0 legit reason for you to not have obliterated the left side of the map with air while pressuring the right side of the map with ground.

10 voidrays can kill a hatchery in under 8 game seconds. Sooooo risky. If he does split off infestors and vipers....hey the side without these units just got a lot more susceptible to collossi. And with proper scouting the idea of getting caught by this comes down to, you are not paying attention.

In short the only place that was actually defended, was the place your entire army was parked. Sure cloak your army, hopefully your msc doesnt get pwned by vipers and park your army right in front of all of the defence. Splitting is overrated anyway.
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Wow. I wasn't going to point this out because it makes you look really bad, but if you want to have this conversation fine

I didn't really think his answer was BM, but if you have some replay you want to show us on how this could be done correctly, I'd be very curious to see.
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You are also watching the replay while having full map vision and the knowledge of foresight. During the game, I have no idea if a Muta switch is coming, where his static defenses are and where his army is sitting. If my Void Rays ever get caught by fungals, I lose them all and I lose the game right there.


Wow. I wasn't going to point this out because it makes you look really bad, but if you want to have this conversation fine. Why don't you know if he is doing some kind of tech switch? Is it because you have 3 observers. 1 with your army, 1 sitting idle by your robo, and 1 just kinda sitting in the middle of the map? How simple it would have been to park an observer in his main witch has 0 spores. And in order for a muta switch to occur wouldnt you have to kill non locust units?

You blind built voidray templar, riding the skytoss/templar is op bandwagon. Why did you build carriers and tempest? Seriously this is as blind following of a build as it gets.

The only reason you didnt win this is because you didnt maintain your scouting and you made some pretty bad decisions, or rather didnt make any good decisions. There is 0 legit reason for you to not have obliterated the left side of the map with air while pressuring the right side of the map with ground.

10 voidrays can kill a hatchery in under 8 game seconds. Sooooo risky. If he does split off infestors and vipers....hey the side without these units just got a lot more susceptible to collossi. And with proper scouting the idea of getting caught by this comes down to, you are not paying attention.

In short the only place that was actually defended, was the place your entire army was parked. Sure cloak your army, hopefully your msc doesnt get pwned by vipers and park your army right in front of all of the defence. Splitting is overrated anyway.


Ok, you go play 1500 point Zergs and win, since you're so good. Oh wait, you can't do that.

Why are you being such a douche? It's a fact that you are watching the replay and able to see everything, while I have the stresses of fighting High Master and GM Zergs in a real game, and I don't have 500 APM and full map vision to know and be able to do everything an AI could if they wanted to. I am pretty sure I know what I am doing and don't need a diamond player to critique my decision-making.

Any noob can watch a replay and theorycraft why they would do X and Y in order to win. The fact of the matter is that this level of play is more than a full league ahead of what you are capable of, so maybe you should shut your mouth until you are actually beating GM and fringe-GM Zergs, K? If you tried to play this same person, I guarantee you couldn't even hold a 3rd base at all. You don't get to criticize me and tell me that I'm bad when you can't even sniff this level of competition.

Get out of my thread if you're going to call people bad when they are 10 times better than you.
Edited by Magnet on 4/23/2013 3:22 PM PDT
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Your bad because your logic for why it wouldnt work is terrible. It wont work because you dont have vision? Seriously? You lost your entire army nd didnt lost the game for another 15 minutes. So if a few voidrays get fungaled its insta loss? Really? Your scared of a muta tech switch?

This is my favorite one. A muta tech switch would be amazing for you. You can deal with mutas far easier then sh/hydra. How zerg pulls off this tech switch while maxed eludes me though. How many mutas could he realistically get unless you do something about his army. Like 40 if he sacks all his drones?

Its really not impressive that your in masters off blind skytoss plays. Your not good at this game. Its pretty clear. i love how you think just cause im terrible at this game my points are invalid. More amazing logic yet. Can you argue what im saying or do you have to be like herp derp im awesome you suck eat it.
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Your bad because your logic for why it wouldnt work is terrible. It wont work because you dont have vision? Seriously? You lost your entire army nd didnt lost the game for another 15 minutes. So if a few voidrays get fungaled its insta loss? Really? Your scared of a muta tech switch?

This is my favorite one. A muta tech switch would be amazing for you. You can deal with mutas far easier then sh/hydra. How zerg pulls off this tech switch while maxed eludes me though. How many mutas could he realistically get unless you do something about his army. Like 40 if he sacks all his drones?

Its really not impressive that your in masters off blind skytoss plays. Your not good at this game. Its pretty clear. i love how you think just cause im terrible at this game my points are invalid. More amazing logic yet. Can you argue what im saying or do you have to be like herp derp im awesome you suck eat it.


Lool, you're terrible. I can't believe you'd accuse people of being bad when you could never, ever take a game off of them. This wasn't a question of who is bad until you started being a !@!*#%%% for no reason. Give me a break.. start taking games off GMs and then maybe you'll have any sort of perspective to this game that somebody can give a !@#$ about.
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Your bad because your logic for why it wouldnt work is terrible. It wont work because you dont have vision? Seriously? You lost your entire army nd didnt lost the game for another 15 minutes. So if a few voidrays get fungaled its insta loss? Really? Your scared of a muta tech switch?

This is my favorite one. A muta tech switch would be amazing for you. You can deal with mutas far easier then sh/hydra. How zerg pulls off this tech switch while maxed eludes me though. How many mutas could he realistically get unless you do something about his army. Like 40 if he sacks all his drones?

Its really not impressive that your in masters off blind skytoss plays. Your not good at this game. Its pretty clear. i love how you think just cause im terrible at this game my points are invalid. More amazing logic yet. Can you argue what im saying or do you have to be like herp derp im awesome you suck eat it.
Wow... you're actually pretty terrible. I don't think you're serious and are just trolling, but if you are serious, you have some serious stupid going on in your head - you should get it checked. It is making you look REALLY foolish.

And, based on your trolly response you're a jealous or butthurt washed out Diamond Zerg who can't improve for crap, and finds it therapeutic to be a douchebag on the forums against people who are 10x better than you. You can't even understand the basics of what he is explaining, let alone the high level stuff.

04/23/2013 01:43 PMPosted by hulud
You blind built voidray templar, riding the skytoss/templar is op bandwagon.
This is enough to either confirm you are trolling, or are stupid and butthurt.

Either way, get out of Protoss discussion. You have no business posting here.
Edited by Zamara on 4/23/2013 4:57 PM PDT
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Hulud it is of course possible to critique someone who is more skilled than you. But it makes no sense at all to say that Magnet is simply a "bad" player. The record shows that he's a good player. This is an objective fact.

Your critique may or may not be valid, I have no idea, because I'm so distracted by your foolish insistence that Magnet is bad.
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Its really not impressive that your in masters off blind skytoss plays. Your not good at this game. Its pretty clear. i love how you think just cause im terrible at this game my points are invalid. More amazing logic yet. Can you argue what im saying or do you have to be like herp derp im awesome you suck eat it.


He tried arguing what you were saying and you went all postal on him. You dragged the intelligence in the room down by multitudes when you couldn't handle the notion that you were wrong about something and got so defensive.

To expand upon what Zamara said, you have no business posting here, nor anywhere until you get that sand out of your vagine.
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Now that the trolls have been swept away into the dustbin, I have an important question for Sidewinder:

I noticed that double pylon wall and the double gate + late core, while you mass a ton of Zealots, and you seem to do this in response to Zerg taking a 3rd. Would you mind explaining your thinking behind this?

I mean I saw what it did and it looked good, and I think I might try it, but the delay in tech seems quite large, mitigated only by the fact that zealots are actually pretty awesome and can deal a ton of damage of Zerg does not scout like that one, and take a bunch of damage. It won't end the game unless the Zerg is terrible, but how "safe" is it. Is this your standard go to pressure? I also noticed, you skipped +1 (likely due to late gases being taken).

I guess that's 2 questions :P
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Aside from calling him bad all his points were valid. I was going to reiterate them, but that's just not necessary.
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04/25/2013 04:19 AMPosted by Razgriz
all his points were valid.
Not... He had no idea what he was talking about. The army that SW had HAD to stay where it was to defend that right side expo.

There was just too much static defense all around, and the Zerg was really diligent in sniping observers and pulling in key units like Carriers, VRs and Tempests/Archons. The left side was really well protected too. What Sidewinder could have done was get a Dark Shrine, then use Zealots to tank spine damage, DTs to snipe the hatch, retreat DTs. Rinse and repeat. This would have made his attempts to deny that base more efficient.

The issue with engaging that Zerg was Sidewinder was having cost-inefficient trades. Units lost were EVEN, the WHOLE GAME. That's extremely bad when Protoss is at that late stage.

I think the idea of using a Mothership is a lot more solid too since it would help use HTs in more forward positions to feedback Vipers, and use Tempests to snipe them and Static D, slowly, force overseers that can be sniped by Tempests. If hydras try to come in, storm. The thing is if microed correctly, this army can SLOWLY move into the Zerg's position using cloak, much like how Swatm Hosts were making their encroachment into Protoss territory slowly chipping at buildings, then units, then forcing an evacuation of the right hand side base.

Also, I think Mothership received some sort of correction to its movement in HOTS - I remember using it in Beta and found it less clunky to move around with it. Not like a movement buff or anything, but maybe something that was making it overshoot its destination, which it didn't do in beta.

hulud was just being a douche Zerg, and no, his points were garbage.

PS: Maybe what SW could have done is attack the left hand side base sooner and transitioning to DT sooner, and not attacking into Zerg's fortified position on the right so much, but prevent him from coming further forward, by denying creep and killing locusts without losing units.
Edited by Zamara on 4/25/2013 5:01 AM PDT
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Yo, quick question,

How do you defend your bases with the slow moving army :(?
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I noticed that double pylon wall and the double gate + late core, while you mass a ton of Zealots, and you seem to do this in response to Zerg taking a 3rd. Would you mind explaining your thinking behind this?


It is just a pressure I am liking right now. Worst case, they make extra Roaches and don't mine from their 3rd for a while. It also causes them to miss geyser timings, tech, etc. It feels good to me, and it hits with the same number of units at about 45 seconds earlier than a +1 4gate. Of course, I don't have +1, but I think it's better to disrupt mining earlier and then tech.
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Aside from calling him bad all his points were valid. I was going to reiterate them, but that's just not necessary.


His points were valid from a maphacker's point of view, and from a point of view of somebody that doesn't understand high level PvZ. He called me bad, told me I should have won, told me I should have sniped bases with Void Rays (which is a terrible idea), told me I should have been able to see the entire map, told me to attack into static defenses, etc.

I admitted where I went wrong, but I am not a pro player, I won't play perfectly. I don't see how you could side with him considering he really doesn't know what he is talking about, and he is calling people bad when he is not anywhere near my level.
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Well, for one, historically you never really react well to someone giving you advice that admonishes you.

Secondly, yes, this is all hindsight and 20/20 and whatnot. Important thing is we all make mistakes in a game and that we learn from them. You chose to argue instead.

Thirdly, I mentioned him calling you bad as a pointless aside and not to be considered. In response to ME you still brought it up twice in your post... showing you're touchy about a subject that is ultimately pointless.

He also countered your statement about watching the whole map. I believe you had idle observers doing naught, that could have been put to good use. Anyway, give me a few minutes and I'll be back to post my review of the game. I'll watch it from your point of view.
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Yeahhh, there were a lot of things that bugged me about that game, like how none of your units were 3/3/3 or even 3/3 your ground was 2/1 (<-Shields) and your Air was 3/1. I don't necessarily like the Tempest play but I won't gripe about that.

At 17:45 you just leave the front lines because ??? Swarm Hosts? Completely neglecting you can demolish his third with your Voids. Just send the ground units back.

You built a WoL-Infestor amount of HTs at any given time. Early on when it was completely unnecessary mind you and kept you from getting any upgrades until much later. You then sacrificed those HT to get a couple of Storms off (totally not worth it).

You stopped building probes during your early Zealot pressure.
On that topic, idle Probes too often. (But LOL that idle worker button -_-)
You had some decent vision in the sense of seeing what might come at you, but not what he was doing at any given time.

Way late in the game you do a big attack and swing up to kill his 3rd which was moderately successful. In the meantime you were warping in Zealots, waiting for the second round was smart but you kept waiting, I expected you to send the 1st+2nd round in but you never did. Probably should have. You sent them in later and they were completely ineffectual.

I understand Swarm Hosts zone HTs but you really seem to like sending them in to their death.

Let your Phoenix die for no reason. (On that note you let a few Overlords live who had no business living).

Keep in mind this is from your vision, but it is indeed hindsight.
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Since when was this a thread in which I was asking for help with a replay? I don't need you to review what some other Diamond player has already done. That's great if you can say everything somebody could have done from a replay, because anybody can do that at any time. That doesn't help me.

If this thread was labeled "What should I have done if I had full map vision the entire game?" then posts like that would actually matter. The point is that Zerg can get into these positions where they mega turtle, and you'll have a hell of a time breaking it. Is it really that hard to understand?

You two need to get together and understand that if you ever lose your army as Protoss, you're dead. I pulled back and played conservatively because there are plenty of games where I had the same kind of thinking that you do, and it lost me an otherwise completely winnable game. If I incorrectly judge a situation because I don't have full map vision and leave my Void Rays somewhere and they get swarmed with Hydras or fungals, I lose that entire huge section of my army, he counterattacks and I die.

And last but not least, I don't see how you can criticize the decisions people make when you are not capable of playing at their level. Anybody can sit at a replay and say "wow, you made X and Y mistake"... those mistakes didn't cost me the game, the way I chose to engage in situations that I am unfamiliar with is what lost me the game. Hence, that is the point of this thread. I'm not asking for help. I am presenting people with this situation that I know they are going to run into (Zerg mega-turtle with an insane unit composition), and finding a solution to it.
Edited by Magnet on 4/26/2013 6:34 AM PDT
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