StarCraft® II

Deep late-game PvZ (Return of the Mothership)

Posts: 6,890
Anyway, your post towards Magnet are seriously jack off material for him. It's frankly annoying how ready you are to get on your knees for him.

No, it's my perspective on diplomacy: find commonality, then express my perspective on what to change. I respect having High Master level players around sharing builds and offering advice, though. [/quote]To be honest I could tell you were trying to be diplomatic and that's very nice of you but you also backhanded everyone who has the opposite feelings of Magnet. Which is not diplomatic actually. Generally if you're trying to mediate you're supposed to reach a sort of compromise. You just full on took his side.

Honestly, in the past I've always taken on Sidewinder/Magnet's side. This time I didn't and I'm getting insulted for it. I don't agree with his methods or reasoning here. That's it. I don't hate him for any reason or even dislike him. I just disagree with him here. But for disagreeing your words were incredibly insulting.

Razgriz, who are some Master players whom you can reliably beat?
I ignored your post for good reason. Your intention is to discredit me on a basis that is irrelevant. I have beaten Masters but as I am in Diamond and haven't been playing HotS lately I haven't been able to face very many of them. It's irrelevant to the point. I didn't see anything special in that replay. I wouldn't have even guessed Masters if I didn't know Magnet was 1400+ points Masters.
Reply Quote
Posts: 348
Hey Sidewinder, thanks for checking out that replay...I'm working on being more aggressive through my play...I just love the idea of sitting at home, sharpening the spear till the enemy comes knocking (probably why I loved 2-base MS in WoL so much :)
Reply Quote
Posts: 779
I am no pro. Logically I am fairly certain building another big buck unit just to beat a composition designed to kill big buck units is not effectual or at least efficient. What is the difference if he pulled a HT, a carrier or mothership? He will lose little. He can always get more energy. If both players are on equal resource it is very easy to call. (Day9 point this out a month ago.)

I really doubt any zerg can safely and suddenly max on swarm host without some risk.

I really feel I have no need to post this. This thread is 4 pages long and should stop at 1st page. Unless they changed the mothership recall and allow you to recall anywhere or at least to mothership.

At 17 min it is clearly demonstrated how weak the templar compared to the colossi in composition. You cannot engage directly even though you are certain you are superior in number.

He cannot fight off creep. Why not just take half the map (6k mineral, at least build a pylon) ? 8 min later the game is starting to turn because he has all the bases taken.
Edited by AgCl on 4/28/2013 6:59 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 111
You're making a post detailing how there's no way to engage this Zerg composition and that the only solution you can think of is to make a mothership. Do you really not understand why other people would watch the replay and give advice on other things you could do to win? It directly relates to your original post because you're trumpeting how the mothership is necessary whereas in reality other people don't think it is because there were plenty of things you could have done to won that game - without ever needing to touch a mothership or the strategy that you're advocating.

All the posts saying, 'You're not better than me, therefore your opinion is invalid' is really silly and I don't understand why you even post here if that's your attitude. You're likely going to be better than 95% of the people posting here, so if you're going to think you're automatically strategically superior to every reply that could be given to you, what's the point of this post?

For the record, I don't agree with what you're saying at all. I think the only thing you're right about is that swarm host, viper, infestor, hydra, static defense is really, really difficult to cost-efficiently break. That being said, all of that has to set-up in one place, so as the game goes longer there is a wider amount of areas for you to harass and attack from. I'm not going to go over your replay (which I watched) to say what I think you did wrong or what you could have done differently, but it suffices to say that, in my opinion, you're talking about strategy for fighting this strategy head on, whereas I think that entirely the wrong way to go about it.

That's like if we were to talk about PvT mech, and you want to discuss the appropriate unit mixture and strategy for attacking head-first into a fully set-up Terran position. OK sure, but that's not what you should be doing anyway, mech is immobile and the strategy that works best is to attack multiple/different locations to pull them in multiple directions so that they're weaker - so that when you attack at that point you'll be able to cost efficiently trade.
Edited by SWBKSalv on 4/28/2013 7:24 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,501
Honestly, in the past I've always taken on Sidewinder/Magnet's side. This time I didn't and I'm getting insulted for it. I don't agree with his methods or reasoning here. That's it. I don't hate him for any reason or even dislike him. I just disagree with him here. But for disagreeing your words were incredibly insulting.

Hmmm... I don't think you're getting insulted for disagreeing with Sidewinder. Disagreement is "I feel this way, you feel that way". When you go from that to you "You're a terrible player, and my PvZ is better than yours" you've gone from disagreeing to attacking.
The reason I took Sidewinder's side was this: "Then some idiot calls you bad because your observers are out of position and you don't execute some theoretical attack you know to be a poor decision. That's not helping, it's a blatant attempt to feel better by putting someone else down". I don't support blatant attempts to inflate one's one pride by attacking others. It's just bad behavior, and I prefer to be a peacemaker. And maybe you didn't intend to do that at all, but in the context of the previous conversation it looked that way, and that's why people didn't respond well to you (especially since claims to be better than another person without badges and such for credibility don't go down well here).

Was Magnet doing some of that? A little, but generally in a defensive rather than offensive manner. So I suggested he take the high ground, not feed the trolls, and avoid doing collateral damage to people who really are bad at SC2 (like myself), but who try hard to be decent guys. And I did it with respect, in a way calculated to get a good response. I approached my goal of better forum behavior diplomatically, or tactfully if you prefer.

As far as whether you were right that Magnet's play in that game was not High Master level?
You know, I've always felt looking through replays that everyone's play looks a league lower because there's so much going on in a game, and because so much of skill shows in what *doesn't* happen. But basically by the time you chimed in, it was clear that that form of replay analysis was kind of a sensitive topic, and nothing positive was likely to come out of it.
Edited by BlackAdder on 4/28/2013 7:49 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 6,890
When you go from that to you "You're a terrible player, and my PvZ is better than yours" you've gone from disagreeing to attacking.
That's not what I said at all. I just mentioned out of a series of various possibilities on why I thought his replay didn't look so snazzy. You just decided to cherry pick one of them and I already know that when I said that, it was a recent comment. So you're trying to justify the superiority complex Magnet had with a comment I said way after the fact (which, to reiterate, is a cherry picked comment).

04/28/2013 07:19 AMPosted by BlackAdder
but in the context of the previous conversation it looked that way, and that's why people didn't respond well to you
Just you and one other guy. Well, and Magnet. You're also calling people trolls unduly. Nobody in this thread has trolled yet.

04/28/2013 07:19 AMPosted by BlackAdder
And I did it with respect, in a way calculated to get a good response.
I started and would have continued that way had Magnet treated me or the other guy with any kind of respect. Like I've said, he doesn't react well to people disagreeing with him. Not that I am or was attacking him for that.

As far as whether you were right that Magnet's play in that game was not High Master level?
You know, I've always felt looking through replays that everyone's play looks a league lower because there's so much going on in a game,
As many replays as I've watched I'm pretty sure I've got a grasp on what Master's level play looks like.
Reply Quote
Posts: 13,942
As many replays as I've watched I'm pretty sure I've got a grasp on what Master's level play looks like.
That's super subjective, because I've likely watched as many games or even more of higher level games, including GMs and I can say that Sidewinder's is a top level game at minimum High Masters level. Definitely not mid or lower. This statement of yours is as meaningful as mine.

Also, RuneK, I don't think you should be criticizing the level of play in this replay, and should be focusing on the actual play. If you do not agree that MS is the answer, then state your reasons, and if Sidewinder says he already considered those factors and still thinks this is the solution, and gives his reasoning, then you should defer to that reasoning and maybe try it out yourself, or allow time to tell whether this is correct or not from a follow-up game from Sidewinder.

I don't think you should be attacking him the way you did. I can agree that Sidewinder did have some snarkiness in his reply, but I don't think it was unprovoked...

To keep this thread positive and FOCUSED on strategy, let's just move on and talk about the actual strategy:

Based on the play that Sidewinder used vs the Zerg, it is a typical lategame skytoss/Templar look, and the response is what GM Zergs and pros like Rekatan and Catz have been advocating as the answer and it seems to be quite effective too. Mistakes were made, on both sides, but those notwithstanding since we are talking broad lategame startegy since the mistakes did not really affect the interaction of Sidewinder's composition choice at its strongest with the Zerg's choice, there is a possibility that Mothership is the correct answer since MS Core became less and less of a determining factor as Photon Overcharge is just another photon cannon's dps, but costing energy instead of resources per se.

Mass cloak seems to be a way to keep High Templar alive and counter Locusts better, and provide HTs with longer effective range to land feedbacks and storms on Viper/Hydra/infestor and allows the rest of the army to kill locusts without taking damage, especially with Tempests being able to snipe Overseers in 1-2 shots.

We have a couple of replays from Cazdog as well to demonstrate a trial when using Mothership in late lategame.

So, RuneK, I highly recommend you try this to find out for yourself why this choice is strong or weak. Because at the moment, you aren't talking from experience and your counter to the logic of the strategy is not sound.

PS: This is not me trying to be insulting or demeaning, and I apologize if it came across as so, but I think that it is not constructive to get into these kinds of fights, and I'd rather we focus and concentrate on strategy talks.

Right now, Mothership looks like the best solution, considering the effects of mass cloaking and the STILL existing possibility to use Mass Recall and Time Warp, just the same, and a stronger attack than Photon Overcharge = Mothership attack dealing 36 damage per shot > 20 damage per shot, at the same dps, which is ok, since the attack is free and does not cost energy. The main advantage we are looking for here is the mass cloaking.

I await your reasoning as to why this is not a reasonable response to a turtling Zerg with Swarm Host/Viper/Infestor/Hydra with mass static defense.
Edited by Zamara on 4/28/2013 10:42 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,501
That's not what I said at all. I just mentioned out of a series of various possibilities on why I thought his replay didn't look so snazzy. You just decided to cherry pick one of them and I already know that when I said that, it was a recent comment. So you're trying to justify the superiority complex Magnet had with a comment I said way after the fact (which, to reiterate, is a cherry picked comment).

You edited your post, but comments like that from the original set the tone, and invite others to become defensive.

Just you and one other guy. Well, and Magnet. You're also calling people trolls unduly. Nobody in this thread has trolled yet.

Actually, I was just calling hulud a troll. You then responded aggressively to Magnet, right after I thought the tone of the thread had cooled down. I asked if that was "really how you wanted to play this" because your comments sounded to me like a deliberate attempt to incite a confrontation.

04/28/2013 08:54 AMPosted by Razgriz
I started and would have continued that way had Magnet treated me or the other guy with any kind of respect.

If that's the case, I don't think your tone came across the way you wanted it to. You have to be very careful with your words online, because without voice tone and body language, everything comes across much more brusquely than in person. You're coming across well enough now, but that wasn't my first impression. Glad to clear things up. :)

As many replays as I've watched I'm pretty sure I've got a grasp on what Master's level play looks like.

Well, I'm going to avoid wading into that discussion. :)
Edited by BlackAdder on 4/28/2013 11:07 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,108
whom you can reliably beat?
I ignored your post for good reason. Your intention is to discredit me on a basis that is irrelevant.


It's a basis you yourself set out. You justified your comments here, in part, based on a claim that you are better than at least some Masters players. This is a strong claim, and requires support. So far, you've failed to provide it. And there are good reasons to doubt it--since you are not yourself a Master player.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,108
Oh crap, Raz, I confused you with Hulud. My apologies.

(It is still doubtful that you are a Masters level player somehow magically stuck in Diamond on the ladder though. ;))
Edited by Speusippus on 4/28/2013 1:02 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 779
Mass cloak seems to be a way to keep High Templar alive and counter Locusts better, and provide HTs with longer effective range to land feedbacks and storms on Viper/Hydra/infestor and allows the rest of the army to kill locusts without taking damage, especially with Tempests being able to snipe Overseers in 1-2 shots.


It is just not efficient. I would happily trade overseers with sight range 11 for anything you trying to cloak.
Edited by AgCl on 4/28/2013 4:35 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,501
It is just not efficient. I would happily trade overseers with sight range 11 for anything you trying to cloak.

So the question becomes whether HTs and Tempests can kill the overseers fast enough 1 FB + 1 hit from a tempest might be enough to kill each. That might be an effective trade for 150/50 and 8 supply. And, of course, you still have to keep up with the Vipers.
Edited by BlackAdder on 4/28/2013 4:57 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 13,942
04/28/2013 04:34 PMPosted by AgCl
It is just not efficient.
It does not have to be. It just has to be effective, and I suspect it pretty much is. Overseers are easy to kill with Tempests and a few Feedbacks.
Reply Quote
Posts: 779
http://drop.sc/328968?pass=3f4e58e2-fbdd-4bb3-ba6f-9d96eadabd95
Reply Quote
Posts: 10,530
So, after giving this a lot of thought and running into the same scenario a few more times, I have come to the following conclusion.

#1 - The Mothership has utility against Swarm Hosts, but the answer isn't to try to push the wall back with your units. The answer is to keep the Mothership wherever they are attacking in order to keep that safe. In the meantime, you should be trying some base-trade type of attacks to hopefully move the Swarm Hosts and relieve that pressure. I have won a few games by just keeping the Mothership at the place they are seiging, and if I didn't, I would have definitely died.

#2 - The best immediate response is to make a Warp Prism or two and at least spend your Zealots making him move around the map instead of losing them to Locusts. In coupling with this, I would immediately get on the map and avoid wherever the Swarm Hosts are at all costs. Try to trade armies around the map and be super aggressive.

#3 - I think any hope of securing another base while you are being Swarm Host seiged is foolish, until you entirely break the contain they have (if you ever do). If you break the contain, you basically have won anyway, so I don't see a reason to get another base at all once a Swarm Host contain has started.

#4 - You absolutely need to hit a three-base timing right as your 4th is starting up to keep his bank low and force him to retain drones rather than building spine/spore everywhere. This is mostly to prevent the late-game Swarm Host + static defense wall from building. Once it is built, I think you are dead already. Not to mention, if you are in his face, he is not going to re-max on Vipers and Swarm Hosts, and it will require him to stay on a more mid-game army.
Edited by Magnet on 4/29/2013 11:04 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 779
#4 - You absolutely need to hit a three-base timing right as your 4th is starting up to keep his bank low and force him to retain drones rather than building spine/spore everywhere. This is mostly to prevent the late-game Swarm Host + static defense wall from building. Once it is built, I think you are dead already. Not to mention, if you are in his face, he is not going to re-max on Vipers and Swarm Hosts, and it will require him to stay on a more mid-game army.


He will most likely remax on:

A. hydra ultra
B. ling bane muta

Depends on what you have.

Excellent post in the end.
Reply Quote
Posts: 6,890
So, after giving this a lot of thought and running into the same scenario a few more times, I have come to the following conclusion.

#1 - The Mothership has utility against Swarm Hosts, but the answer isn't to try to push the wall back with your units. The answer is to keep the Mothership wherever they are attacking in order to keep that safe. In the meantime, you should be trying some base-trade type of attacks to hopefully move the Swarm Hosts and relieve that pressure. I have won a few games by just keeping the Mothership at the place they are seiging, and if I didn't, I would have definitely died.

#2 - The best immediate response is to make a Warp Prism or two and at least spend your Zealots making him move around the map instead of losing them to Locusts. In coupling with this, I would immediately get on the map and avoid wherever the Swarm Hosts are at all costs. Try to trade armies around the map and be super aggressive.

#3 - I think any hope of securing another base while you are being Swarm Host seiged is foolish, until you entirely break the contain they have (if you ever do). If you break the contain, you basically have won anyway, so I don't see a reason to get another base at all once a Swarm Host contain has started.

#4 - You absolutely need to hit a three-base timing right as your 4th is starting up to keep his bank low and force him to retain drones rather than building spine/spore everywhere. This is mostly to prevent the late-game Swarm Host + static defense wall from building. Once it is built, I think you are dead already. Not to mention, if you are in his face, he is not going to re-max on Vipers and Swarm Hosts, and it will require him to stay on a more mid-game army.
Good analysis.

Oh crap, Raz, I confused you with Hulud. My apologies.
I was pretty sure you did. I just rolled with it.

You edited your post, but comments like that from the original set the tone, and invite others to become defensive.
I only edit to add more quotes or fix spelling. I'm not dishonest. I've even gone out of my way to point out in a post that I'm not sure if I agree with what I've said in a post at a later time if new information comes to light.

04/28/2013 10:36 AMPosted by Zamara
If you do not agree that MS is the answer, then state your reasons,
Well, thing was is that he didn't give me any reasons as to why it WAS an answer. I didn't see anything to rebut. It was basically, "Same thing I did in this replay, but with a Mothership." Which is kind of piss-poor. Sidewinder's last post is a lot better and totally makes sense to me (it was also something I was already aware of, but that's not important).

especially with Tempests being able to snipe Overseers in 1-2 shots.
I know what you're trying to say, but I kind of want to just throw this in here. Your comment here is really... inaccurate. When speaking in this context you would say X Tempests kill Overseers in 1-2 shots. Because just saying Tempests more implies a single Tempests abilities or a completely vague number of Tempests. For example, 3 Tempests will take quite a few shots to kill Overseers and it's going to take an absurdly long time because of their slow attack speed and habit of overkilling.

04/28/2013 10:36 AMPosted by Zamara
So, RuneK, I highly recommend you try this to find out for yourself why this choice is strong or weak.
I already know why it's weak and Sidewinder agreed with me even if he doesn't realize it. You don't attack in to Swarm Hosts like that, the addition of a Mothership in a head-on attack will not save you. He points out exactly my thoughts in his last post.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,501
I only edit to add more quotes or fix spelling. I'm not dishonest. I've even gone out of my way to point out in a post that I'm not sure if I agree with what I've said in a post at a later time if new information comes to light.

Didn't mean to call you dishonest, only saying I couldn't pick up your original words, so I was acknowledging that in discussing whatever set the tone there I was working from memory.
Reply Quote
Posts: 348
This recently popped up on Husky's channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpxK9NtJdKM

I do think that Mana was slightly too passive at times. Protoss can't just sit there building the ultimate deathball of doom and expect to break Swarm Host / Viper / Hydra / Infestor along with static defenses.

Besides the Recall idea suggested above (which may go too far), could Blizzard perhaps consider making the Mothership invulnerable to Abduct and Neural Parasite? I know that the Ultralisk has Frenzied in order to make it more useful...why can't the flagship of the Golden Armada be similarly privileged - especially when you realize we only have one of them and it costs so much time, supply and resources to acquire?
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]