StarCraft® II

Jim and Sarah

Posts: 22,243
07/05/2013 05:42 AMPosted by MajorFoley
Yeah well zagara despite changing for her queen, doesnt mean her attitude has changed to anyone else and this extends to her fellow broodmothers


Yeah but that's only because we haven't SEEN the change. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Maybe it hasn't, and Kerrigan still needs to change that part of her.

The only chance that'll happen, is if its someone who believed Zeratuls words, the protoss trusted Kerrigan once, i doubt they will do it again. and besides, im starting to think, that this entire triliogy is not just to bring about the birth of Amon, its to set him up for SC3 and he will be the entire villain if it will also be another trilogy, which im kinda hoping it wont be


Somehow I don't see why Amon would return in SC3. Right now we still don't even know enough about the guy, we need to wait for LotV to tell that story.

07/05/2013 05:42 AMPosted by MajorFoley
This is kinda why im thinking one of them might die, blizzard arent exactly bad story tellers, and it is THEIR game so THEY choose the ending, doesnt mean that others can hope for something different than what they were expecting lol


I know that, and HotS ending wasn't crap, though it was a shame Jim and Sarah weren't together, but they still have LotV to deal with it. I only hope between HotS and LotV, the two of them will re-ally together again for the final battle.
Posts: 65

Yeah I don't think Blizzard would do that, at least I can't see them being convinced of it. But right now, the main Q is will Jim and Sarah end up together by the end of LotV.

We need THAT first, THEN we'll talk about Sarah's return to humanity. Raynor would want both, but in the end, if it comes to the point where he has to live on the Leviathan with Kerrigan just to be with her, I think he would, once the war with Amon ends.


Heh, that's my ideal ending: Jim and Sarah together, AND Sarah still Primal Queen (though not necessary longer the leader of the Swarm).
Why Primal Queen? Because I think she's a cool badass this way! Also concidering that she's not the same Queen of Blades she once was (who enjoyed killing and betrayed everyone).
I was a fan of Darth Vader above Luke Skywalker when I was a kid, because he was the coolest badass ever those days. It's pretty much the same when it comes to Kerrigan as well.

But if the choice would be either them together, or her being the Primal Queen, then I would choose the first option. Happy ending for them together is more important.
Posts: 265
Characters don't simply die off-screen in this series.

I honestly don't think Zagara will ever have the mindset necessary to lead the Swarm. Remember, Kerrigan is a far more complicated entity now, not a mere swarm zerg, or a human, or even a primal. The impact that she has on the Swarm as a whole is more than leadership, it is a change of the very entity that the Zerg are.

Kerrigan deligating her responsibility as the will of an entire race to a glorified Brood Mother would be dangerous and irresponsible, even for a man like Jim Raynor. You guys need to accept that the ends don't justify the means - and in this case, a romantic conclusion won't justify lazy writing if they go that route.
So, because we KNOW that Blizzard is not lazy, we can logically predict that whatever WILL happen will be a hundred times better than anything that's been suggested in this thread.

Or maybe I'm getting this all backwards and LotV will be the point when they go lazy. Who knows.


Lazy writing would be no character developments and quick resolutions. That's not what we're asking for here.

We're asking for a positive resolution between these two characters. That doesn't mean they have to get married, have sex, kids, and live happily ever after at the end of LotV. It just means they need to survive. With all the crap these two characters have been through, do you really think killing them off at the end of this entire trilogy is a good idea?

As for Zagara, it's been foreshadowed multiple times in HotS that she could be a possible future leader. Why else would Kerrigan have even spared her after trying to regain Zerg forces for her vengeance agenda? She taught her about having vision. The way I understand it, she wants to teach Zagara to use the swarm for self defense purposes only, and not go around taking over random planets because they can. That's what Kerrigan meant by "changing the swarm forever", in my opinion.

You need to understand, that Kerrigan's "complexity", is only as complex as Abathur's engineering degree (plus a few perks from re infesting herself on Zerus). Abathur is the one who has the power to alter the brood mothers both physically and mentally. If Zagara isn't ready, she'll get ready fast. Zerg are used to evolving at astounding speeds, so this should be easy for her.

It's not like there has to be ONE leader for every bug in the universe anyway. There can be multiple brood mothers controlling forces, much like it was in HotS, with Zagara in charge of them. Just because Kerrigan was an "almighty" queen, doesn't mean that's whats needed to control the swarm in a peaceful, self defensive way.
Posts: 265
This is all assuming Kerrigan cools down, stops acting irrational, and recognizes that soloing a Xel'Naga is the dumbest thing she could come up with.

But the way HotS ended, with her "renouncing" everything, it's pretty obvious that the writers want you to think Kerrigan is going to be dead by the end of LotV.

If that happens, we won't need to discuss romance anymore. (Unless you're a Jim Raynor/Nova Terra fan.)
Posts: 22,243

Yeah I don't think Blizzard would do that, at least I can't see them being convinced of it. But right now, the main Q is will Jim and Sarah end up together by the end of LotV.

We need THAT first, THEN we'll talk about Sarah's return to humanity. Raynor would want both, but in the end, if it comes to the point where he has to live on the Leviathan with Kerrigan just to be with her, I think he would, once the war with Amon ends.


Heh, that's my ideal ending: Jim and Sarah together, AND Sarah still Primal Queen (though not necessary longer the leader of the Swarm).
Why Primal Queen? Because I think she's a cool badass this way! Also concidering that she's not the same Queen of Blades she once was (who enjoyed killing and betrayed everyone).
I was a fan of Darth Vader above Luke Skywalker when I was a kid, because he was the coolest badass ever those days. It's pretty much the same when it comes to Kerrigan as well.

But if the choice would be either them together, or her being the Primal Queen, then I would choose the first option. Happy ending for them together is more important.


Ah the old SW references. I just don't want a Return of the Jedi ending. I don't see Raynor lighting a fire and burning Kerrigan's corpse at the end of LotV.

But yeah Raynor would accept Kerrigan still as the primal QoB if it really came to that, but he'd still want the deinfestation option first.
Posts: 22,243
This is all assuming Kerrigan cools down, stops acting irrational, and recognizes that soloing a Xel'Naga is the dumbest thing she could come up with.

But the way HotS ended, with her "renouncing" everything, it's pretty obvious that the writers want you to think Kerrigan is going to be dead by the end of LotV.

If that happens, we won't need to discuss romance anymore. (Unless you're a Jim Raynor/Nova Terra fan.)


She's renouncing everything because she thinks it's a suicide mission.

She told Stukov that there's no way to beat Amon with just the swarm alone. But at the same time, what other allies would she have?

She didn't want Raynor to get involved in this because he's done more than enough, but it's not like anyone else will listen to what she has to say. She doesn't expect Zeratul to succeed in speaking to his people about it all.
Posts: 265
She told Stukov that there's no way to beat Amon with just the swarm alone. But at the same time, what other allies would she have?


So hide?
Wait?
Make swarm more powerful?

I mean wtF? WAIT until the other races get their acts together before moving in? What good is she by kamikaze tactics and then Amon takes the swarm and kills everyone? I remember the Protoss mission from WoL. If that damn swarm wasn't there at the end, I was gonna destroy all those Hybrids, with minerals left to spare.
Posts: 362
Yeah but that's only because we haven't SEEN the change. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Maybe it hasn't, and Kerrigan still needs to change that part of her.

We saw it gradually as the game progressed, she is slightly understanding to basics but anything more complex and she doesnt care. She regards herself as the strongest broodmother so despite being equally in rank she demands from other broodmothers

07/05/2013 05:38 PMPosted by Forcedge
We're asking for a positive resolution between these two characters. That doesn't mean they have to get married, have sex, kids, and live happily ever after at the end of LotV. It just means they need to survive. With all the crap these two characters have been through, do you really think killing them off at the end of this entire trilogy is a good idea?

And thats a major point in this, throughout the entirety of their lives, they've only had small amounts of peace, and Kerrigan had way less than Raynor did, it would be great seeming them for another trilogy after SC2

07/05/2013 05:38 PMPosted by Forcedge
It's not like there has to be ONE leader for every bug in the universe anyway. There can be multiple brood mothers controlling forces, much like it was in HotS, with Zagara in charge of them. Just because Kerrigan was an "almighty" queen, doesn't mean that's whats needed to control the swarm in a peaceful, self defensive way.

And this is where i think Kerrigan wanted to start with Zagara, Zagara proclaimed herself the strongest of all broodmothers, so shes trying to change her first so that other broodmothers may follow and then lead their broods under their control while keeping parts of whatever might be their new home safe (assuming that blizzard dont kill of this kind of Zerg which would be stupid)

07/05/2013 05:43 PMPosted by Forcedge
If that happens, we won't need to discuss romance anymore. (Unless you're a Jim Raynor/Nova Terra fan.)

Yeah well, there trying to set it up to expect that, we also need to remember that move/game writers also like to trick us using methods like that, and i dont think Kerrigan would want to renounce Raynor for long if what we coming will be happening very soon. Zeratuls gotta get his !@# into gear

07/05/2013 09:56 PMPosted by Forcedge
I mean wtF? WAIT until the other races get their acts together before moving in? What good is she by kamikaze tactics and then Amon takes the swarm and kills everyone? I remember the Protoss mission from WoL. If that damn swarm wasn't there at the end, I was gonna destroy all those Hybrids, with minerals left to spare.

Lol yeah the hybrids dont exactly seem dangerous in that mission do they? i mean with stuff like phoenixes and voidrays they could easily wipe out the Hybrids. But you gotta remember to man, that part of this has already changed, Kerrigan hasnt died yet so unless this scene is actually in the future or its already been changed has yet to be seen. And the other races... Yeah thats gonna be a problem for her to get trust back and i think we all know that
Edited by MajorFoley on 7/7/2013 3:32 AM PDT
Posts: 65


Heh, that's my ideal ending: Jim and Sarah together, AND Sarah still Primal Queen (though not necessary longer the leader of the Swarm).
Why Primal Queen? Because I think she's a cool badass this way! Also concidering that she's not the same Queen of Blades she once was (who enjoyed killing and betrayed everyone).
I was a fan of Darth Vader above Luke Skywalker when I was a kid, because he was the coolest badass ever those days. It's pretty much the same when it comes to Kerrigan as well.

But if the choice would be either them together, or her being the Primal Queen, then I would choose the first option. Happy ending for them together is more important.


Ah the old SW references. I just don't want a Return of the Jedi ending. I don't see Raynor lighting a fire and burning Kerrigan's corpse at the end of LotV.

But yeah Raynor would accept Kerrigan still as the primal QoB if it really came to that, but he'd still want the deinfestation option first.


True enough.
Though after what I saw in the ending cinematic of HOTS, I would concider using the artefact too dangerous.

And after all, as Jim keeps saying:
"We are who we choose to be".
Posts: 22,243
07/05/2013 09:56 PMPosted by Forcedge
I mean wtF? WAIT until the other races get their acts together before moving in? What good is she by kamikaze tactics and then Amon takes the swarm and kills everyone? I remember the Protoss mission from WoL. If that damn swarm wasn't there at the end, I was gonna destroy all those Hybrids, with minerals left to spare.


Well yeah from what we saw in the Overmind's vision, but it's still unclear how big the hybrid army is.
Posts: 22,243
07/06/2013 04:08 AMPosted by MajorFoley
We saw it gradually as the game progressed, she is slightly understanding to basics but anything more complex and she doesnt care. She regards herself as the strongest broodmother so despite being equally in rank she demands from other broodmothers


That's true, right now the starting point for Kerrigan is to get Zagara to change her ways to the other species so there wouldn't be constant war with the terrans and Protoss.

07/06/2013 04:08 AMPosted by MajorFoley
And thats a majro point in this, throughout the entirety of their lives, they've only had small amounts of peace, and Kerrigan had way less than Raynor did, it would be great seeming them for another trilogy after SC2


I'd like that, but I don't want them to constantly be fighting each other because of other factors. After everything that's happened you'd think Blizzard would allow them to fight alongside each other again.

07/06/2013 04:08 AMPosted by MajorFoley
Yeah well, there trying to set it up to expect that, we also need to rememebr that move/game writers also like to trick us using methods like that, and i dont think Kerrigan would want to renounce Raynor for long if what we coming will be happening very soon. Zeratuls gotta get his !@# into gear


She won't, especially if Amon decides to target Raynor. Remember, Mengsk's plan in using Raynor as a hostage wasn't a BAD plan, he just didn't have a strong enough army to make the plan work. Amon, on the other hand, has a much better army.

07/06/2013 04:08 AMPosted by MajorFoley
Lol yeah the hybrids dont exactly seem dangerous in that mission do they? i mean with stuff like phoenixes and voidrays they could easily wipe out the Hybrids. But you gotta rememebr to man, that part of this has already changed, Kerrigan hasnt died yet so unless this scene is actually in the future or its already been changed has yet to be seen. And the other races... Yeah thats gonna be a problem for her to get trust back and i think we all know that


This is where the major problem comes in. You have to remember that back in BW, when Kerrigan helped the Protoss on Braxis to look for the Uraj crystal, even Zeratul had been deceived by her. Under that logic, the Protoss are not just going to take her word for anything anymore, they're going to want some insurance policy to make sure she can't backstab them.

In retrospect, I wouldn't be surprised if the Protoss too tried using Raynor in a way to force Kerrigan to back down by threatening his life.
Posts: 22,243


Ah the old SW references. I just don't want a Return of the Jedi ending. I don't see Raynor lighting a fire and burning Kerrigan's corpse at the end of LotV.

But yeah Raynor would accept Kerrigan still as the primal QoB if it really came to that, but he'd still want the deinfestation option first.


True enough.
Though after what I saw in the ending cinematic of HOTS, I would concider using the artefact too dangerous.

And after all, as Jim keeps saying:
"We are who we choose to be".


I know about that. And while the Overmind intended for her to only save the swarm, Kerrigan could choose something else.

She technically already did in HotS when Mengsk told her Raynor was still alive. She could have kept going with revenge and everything, but instead she immediately postponed the plans for the Korhal invasion and went to contact the Raiders about it.
Posts: 265
I'd like that, but I don't want them to constantly be fighting each other because of other factors. After everything that's happened you'd think Blizzard would allow them to fight alongside each other again.


This.

Those missions in the beginning where you got to control Kerrigan and Raynor together were amazing, however short they were (Did you actually control Raynor? Or was he AI? I can't remember). I got the same feeling during the last mission where they assault Korhal together with their armies. To see the Raiders fighting alongside the swarm was cool. (Woulda been even better if Raynor himself was on the ground =D)
Posts: 22,243
07/06/2013 11:05 AMPosted by Forcedge
I'd like that, but I don't want them to constantly be fighting each other because of other factors. After everything that's happened you'd think Blizzard would allow them to fight alongside each other again.


This.

Those missions in the beginning where you got to control Kerrigan and Raynor together were amazing, however short they were (Did you actually control Raynor? Or was he AI? I can't remember). I got the same feeling during the last mission where they assault Korhal together with their armies. To see the Raiders fighting alongside the swarm was cool. (Woulda been even better if Raynor himself was on the ground =D)


He was just an AI

Well, if Raynor DID go onto the battlefield, Kerrigan probably would have told him not to. In the Hyperion he would be protected, and even then we all saw in the final mission of Mengsk using his elite guard to destroy it.
Posts: 39
07/05/2013 09:56 PMPosted by Forcedge
I mean wtF? WAIT until the other races get their acts together before moving in? What good is she by kamikaze tactics and then Amon takes the swarm and kills everyone? I remember the Protoss mission from WoL. If that damn swarm wasn't there at the end, I was gonna destroy all those Hybrids, with minerals left to spare.


"Power overwhelming" - Protoss archon
Posts: 22,243
07/06/2013 06:34 PMPosted by HLandin
I mean wtF? WAIT until the other races get their acts together before moving in? What good is she by kamikaze tactics and then Amon takes the swarm and kills everyone? I remember the Protoss mission from WoL. If that damn swarm wasn't there at the end, I was gonna destroy all those Hybrids, with minerals left to spare.


"Power overwhelming" - Protoss archon


That remains to be seen of how accurate the vision really was. We won't know til LotV.
Posts: 39
07/06/2013 11:05 AMPosted by Forcedge
Those missions in the beginning where you got to control Kerrigan and Raynor together were amazing, however short they were (Did you actually control Raynor? Or was he AI? I can't remember). I got the same feeling during the last mission where they assault Korhal together with their armies. To see the Raiders fighting alongside the swarm was cool. (Woulda been even better if Raynor himself was on the ground =D)


I agree. I really liked "Back in the Saddle" even though I guess it gave me false expectations for where the plot of HOTS was headed (my "illusion" was soon shattered in the following missions). I can see how much Raynor and Kerrigan enjoyed working together ("just like old times"), especially after reading Flashpoint, and it was a shame it didn't work out that way ("Dahum shame"). Oh well.
Posts: 160
07/05/2013 11:41 AMPosted by ragnarok
Oh that's true as well, but Blizzard better not use a Brood War 2.0 ending for this.


NO ONE wants to see a Brood War 2.0 less than I do, except - and time will tell - perhaps the writers of SC2.

07/05/2013 05:38 PMPosted by Forcedge
Lazy writing would be no character developments and quick resolutions. That's not what we're asking for here.

Good. Although in a forum with diverse opinions and motives it is wise to speak in singularis.

07/05/2013 05:38 PMPosted by Forcedge
With all the crap these two characters have been through, do you really think killing them off at the end of this entire trilogy is a good idea?


Absolutely not. Team SoK are my favourite science fiction team, ever. With 3/5 of the team dead or MIA, I'd really like for the last two to stay alive. Which means I'd prefer that they would stay alive over:
A) An implausible, weak resolution where Kerrigan and Jim get together through the Act of God.
B) They try to get together but one of them dies.
C) They both die.
It's about priorities. Obviously together, of different species, alive and victorious would be optimal but it has to be done WELL. And LotV has an inherent challenge of building around a theme that won't conflict with the Amon plot, so this is just another burden on top of a large hill of problems.

07/05/2013 05:38 PMPosted by Forcedge
You need to understand, that Kerrigan's "complexity", is only as complex as Abathur's engineering degree (plus a few perks from re infesting herself on Zerus).

Not quite. I'd like to cite this:

And after all, as Jim keeps saying:"We are who we choose to be".


The deepest meaning of those words is that Kerrigans' choice is what makes her truly complex - and her choice to define the Swarm will inevitably mean that she's more than a leader - she's it's true soul now. She cannot simply be replaced.

07/06/2013 10:14 AMPosted by ragnarok
In retrospect, I wouldn't be surprised if the Protoss too tried using Raynor in a way to force Kerrigan to back down by threatening his life.

Protoss don't do that sort of thing. The Protoss will get to work rebuilding Aiur or they'll finally starve to death due to lack of healthy Aiur sunlight (which is why they're all so thin). It's their choice to go extinct or not.

I agree. I really liked "Back in the Saddle" even though I guess it gave me false expectations for where the plot of HOTS was headed (my "illusion" was soon shattered in the following missions). I can see how much Raynor and Kerrigan enjoyed working together ("just like old times"), especially after reading Flashpoint, and it was a shame it didn't work out that way ("Dahum shame"). Oh well.


I liked it too, but my bets on my home EU forum were bugging me. You see I bet a few hundred Dignity Points that Kerrigan wouldn't have a sense of humour - the first lab missions were almost proving me otherwise but Kerrigan REALLY didn't have much of a sense of humour in HotS, which is obviously a good thing.

07/06/2013 12:17 PMPosted by ragnarok
He was just an AI


Jim: "Sarah...? No... What have you *BLEEP BOOP*"
Kerrigan: "Jim?"
Jim: "I AM A ROBOT! *ROBOT NOISES!*"
*Kerrigan Destroys Universe*
Posts: 265
07/06/2013 08:03 PMPosted by Rasofe
The deepest meaning of those words is that Kerrigans' choice is what makes her truly complex - and her choice to define the Swarm will inevitably mean that she's more than a leader - she's it's true soul now. She cannot simply be replaced.


Well that was quite philosophical, but here's the unpleasant reality.

If you want to "change" the swarm, then your only option is to destroy it. They will never live in peace with anybody. Their purpose is to conquer and grow as a species. They'll be doing that with or without the queen. (Althought they prefer a strong leader)
Posts: 160
Well that was quite philosophical, but here's the unpleasant reality. If you want to "change" the swarm, then your only option is to destroy it. They will never live in peace with anybody.


Just as the Terrans and Protoss do not live in peace?
It is but a matter of turning the anaethema that the Swarm presents into an ordinary rival species. It doesn't have to be as personal as it was.
And then we can all live happily Starcrafts after.
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