Jim and Sarah

Posts: 31,639
Zeratul would choose to give his life for the sake of a friend. Story-wise I think it would be a good contrast and balance to Tassadar's sacrifice for the sake of all.


This is the one thing that'll frustrate Raynor and Kerrigan: the "greater good" isn't about the two of them
Posts: 31,639
I think Jim will start to be considered as important to stopping the Fallen One as Kerrigan...they are a team in a sense; if he dies, Kerrigan's humanity will be broken and she's not much good to anyone as emo-Kerrigan.


And that part's obvious: if the UNN news broadcasts showed Raynor was only held captive by the Dominion early in the game, Kerrigan never would have turned to the swarm like that to get him back.
Posts: 1,050
This is the one thing that'll frustrate Raynor and Kerrigan: the "greater good" isn't about the two of them

Explain please. You might have missed my point there.

I think Jim will start to be considered as important to stopping the Fallen One as Kerrigan...they are a team in a sense; if he dies, Kerrigan's humanity will be broken and she's not much good to anyone as emo-Kerrigan.

Ya know, I gotta disagree here. No doubt Jim is important to Sarah, but he has also always been her weakness. Really, him being alive is a benefit to Amon, because Raynor is the one thing that causes Kerrigan pause and can cause her to question herself. What do you think would happen if Jim was killed and Amon was responsible? Kerrigan would permanently lose any vulnerability and would lazerbeam her focus on annihilating Amon. Seriously, so much fit would hit the shan.
Edited by DarthTimmy on 5/6/2013 8:11 PM PDT
Posts: 52
What do you think would happen if Jim was killed and Amon was responsible? Kerrigan would permanently lose any vulnerability and would lazerbeam her focus on annihilating Amon. Seriously, so much fit would hit the shan.


He could use Jim as a hostage. No new plot device there, but nonetheless effective. Also she made some bad decisions when she thought he was dead the first time (granted, if we are to believe that her re-rebirth was required, it turned out good in the end), so I tend to think of her as unstable without Jim's grizzled looks to temper her sizzling rage.
Posts: 1,050
He could use Jim as a hostage. No new plot device there, but nonetheless effective. Also she made some bad decisions when she thought he was dead the first time (granted, if we are to believe that her re-rebirth was required, it turned out good in the end), so I tend to think of her as unstable without Jim's grizzled looks to temper her sizzling rage.

Exactly. But because of this I think Jim is a liability to her focus when he is around. If I were Kerrigan, I wouldn't want Raynor steeped in the fight where the escalating opposing powers could easily end his life. If I were Amon, and my agents had captured Raynor, I would threaten torture and irreversible mutilation as opposed to death. You can execute torture and still not lose your advantage. Strait up execution is a one time deal, and like I said, if Amon did that, it would be far worse for him.
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yeah well, you think tahts excrutiating, ive been watiing for 10 years for DOOM IV and now i'm hoping to god that it isnt going to be a failure... anyways back on topic, all we know is that something big, will happen towards the end of LotV and im not referring Amon either, for all we know blizzard might extend the series as he might exactly be defeated in LotV


Hmm...I don't have the same relationship to Doom as I have to Starcraft. Do Doom 3 and Doom 4 have a story connected?

That being said, I'm not a big fan of modern RTS (especially not multiplayer), but I grew up with Starcraft so it's more the story. Sarah Kerrigan influenced my childhood a lot, so I have a sort of personal interest in this, wether I like it or not.

If Blizzard pulls this off good AND the way I hope for, she could actually topple Darth Vader from the throne as my #1 most influential fiction-character in my life.

Doom was pretty much my grow up game (not appropriate for someone born in 1993 but hey xD i never turned out to be a violent killer (TAKE THAT MEDIA!) they've announced DOOM 4 is not a sequel to doom 3 but not a reboot either, meaning i think itll be a sequel to DOOM 2 or something like that. the first RTS i played AOE 3 and i only recently got into SC2 a year and a half ago but i love it
Posts: 364
05/06/2013 11:10 AMPosted by ragnarok
Oh I'm sure Kerrigan and Jim will have to team up again, lest he get killed and Kerrigan's humanity is irreparably shattered . Remember, Narud used a doppleganger of Jim to get under her skin, and then reminded her of the good days when she was a sexy redhead. And that more or less worked; she was stunned for long enough to get run through. I'd say that her thing with Jimmy would be quite useful as a means to break her, so it seems obvious to me that Amon will exploit that and Kerrigan will have to run to Jim's defense.


Yeah that was painful for Kerrigan to see again, how badly she wanted to go back to being like that, and to be by Raynor's side.

Still, that was nothing compared to the prison break scene. That was literally the deathblow that would have shattered her permanently, had Raynor NOT fought by her side in the last HotS mission.

And for the part of Amon exploiting that, it's obvious. Mengsk's idea of using Raynor to force Kerrigan to back down obviously didn't work, but the principle held true.

And unlike Mengsk, Amon has a much better army.

definitely more capable too
Posts: 364
05/06/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Sygnious
Oh I'm sure Kerrigan and Jim will have to team up again, lest he get killed and Kerrigan's humanity is irreparably shattered . Remember, Narud used a doppleganger of Jim to get under her skin, and then reminded her of the good days when she was a sexy redhead. And that more or less worked; she was stunned for long enough to get run through. I'd say that her thing with Jimmy would be quite useful as a means to break her, so it seems obvious to me that Amon will exploit that and Kerrigan will have to run to Jim's defense.


Hmm...I wonder if we may be forgetting something...or someone: Zeratul in the shadows to the rescue!
If Amon attempts using Jim against Sarah, it could be good opportunity for Zeratul to show heroism.

You gotta remember, while he MAY and (its a very big MAY) do that, its highly unlikely, you know what happened to his matriarch, he still hates kerrigan, his pretty much like others using her mainly because he wants to see everything survive. When we look at RAynor and Kerrigan, Kerrigan very likely would not have become the Queen of blades again if she knew Raynor was alive, that prison scene, i think was great, it kinda laid the foundation of her returning and focusing on the swarm, but even after the mission when you click on her all she thinks of is Jim, and if we take a look at Raynor, before the assault against Mengsk, he looks like he couldnt believe what he said to Kerrigan, i'm pretty sure if any were to die, they would pretty much want to stop living themselves, Raynors already faced the destruction of his family and is the only one pretty much alive, and Kerrigan can relate (in flashpoint theres a scene where he and kerrigan are talking about johnny, his son) But kerrigan, might live and her "queen !@#$% of the universe" personality might come back, if Raynor were to die.
Posts: 364
05/06/2013 08:24 PMPosted by BroDarkness
What do you think would happen if Jim was killed and Amon was responsible? Kerrigan would permanently lose any vulnerability and would lazerbeam her focus on annihilating Amon. Seriously, so much fit would hit the shan.


He could use Jim as a hostage. No new plot device there, but nonetheless effective. Also she made some bad decisions when she thought he was dead the first time (granted, if we are to believe that her re-rebirth was required, it turned out good in the end), so I tend to think of her as unstable without Jim's grizzled looks to temper her sizzling rage.


05/06/2013 08:39 PMPosted by DarthTimmy
He could use Jim as a hostage. No new plot device there, but nonetheless effective. Also she made some bad decisions when she thought he was dead the first time (granted, if we are to believe that her re-rebirth was required, it turned out good in the end), so I tend to think of her as unstable without Jim's grizzled looks to temper her sizzling rage.

Exactly. But because of this I think Jim is a liability to her focus when he is around. If I were Kerrigan, I wouldn't want Raynor steeped in the fight where the escalating opposing powers could easily end his life. If I were Amon, and my agents had captured Raynor, I would threaten torture and irreversible mutilation as opposed to death. You can execute torture and still not lose your advantage. Strait up execution is a one time deal, and like I said, if Amon did that, it would be far worse for him.

im leaning more towards brodarkness here, sure jim could be liability to her, but i doubt it, and while hostage taking isnt exactly a new plot device, with Jim Raynor as hostage, not only would Kerrigan halt, but it would also stop his raiders and (if his relations are any good with Valerian still) possibly the dominion soldiers from fighting against him and the hybrids
Posts: 1,050
You gotta remember, while he MAY and (its a very big MAY) do that, its highly unlikely, you know what happened to his matriarch, he still hates kerrigan, his pretty much like others using her mainly because he wants to see everything survive.

I wonder if Zeratul recognizes that Kerrigan is different than the Infested Kerrigan that forced him to kill Razzagal. I definitely want to see what's going on in Zeratul's mind. Way I see it, he incidentally already got a degree of revenge on her by compelling her to become Zerg again. Her chance at simple happiness is virtually gone now. In a sense he took her humanity by her own hand, just as she took his honor by his own hand. It would be interesting if he found it empty and thus chose to let go of his hatred for her.

When we look at RAynor and Kerrigan, Kerrigan very likely would not have become the Queen of blades again if she knew Raynor was alive, that prison scene, i think was great, it kinda laid the foundation of her returning and focusing on the swarm, but even after the mission when you click on her all she thinks of is Jim, and if we take a look at Raynor, before the assault against Mengsk, he looks like he couldnt believe what he said to Kerrigan, i'm pretty sure if any were to die, they would pretty much want to stop living themselves, Raynors already faced the destruction of his family and is the only one pretty much alive, and Kerrigan can relate (in flashpoint theres a scene where he and kerrigan are talking about johnny, his son) But kerrigan, might live and her "queen !@#$% of the universe" personality might come back, if Raynor were to die.

Way I see it:
1) Kerrigan/Raynor live and reunite => Like it or not, you made us want this Blizzard.
2) Kerrigan/Raynor die => Not as good as above. Better than below.
3) Kerrigan dies/Raynor lives => Sad. Grow old without anything that personally matters.
4) Kerrigan lives/Raynor dies => More sad. Long life having lost heart and only genuine love.
5) Kerrigan merges with Protoss/Raynor lives => Same as #3 but more annoying cuz its supposed to be not as sad when it really is.
6) Kerrigan merges with Protoss/Raynor dies => Actually not as sad as #5 but still lame.
7) Kerrigan/Raynor live and part ways => I quit Blizzard.
Posts: 105
What about good old cryogenic prison? Kerrigan gets instead of death sentence few thousand years. Raynor could decide that he goes to hibernation as well to eventually be with her.

They would be in similar position as if they were dead. If Blizzard wants them out of picture for SC3 in order to make place for new heroes or something like that. But if they wanted them use again they wouldn't have to revive them (which is always more lame technique).
Protoss would be satisfied because she would be punish.
People who hate happy endings would be less angry because there would be only hope of happy ending.
People who hate unhappy endings would be less angry because it wouldn't be as permanent as death of one of them.
Posts: 364
05/06/2013 11:32 PMPosted by DarthTimmy
You gotta remember, while he MAY and (its a very big MAY) do that, its highly unlikely, you know what happened to his matriarch, he still hates kerrigan, his pretty much like others using her mainly because he wants to see everything survive.

I wonder if Zeratul recognizes that Kerrigan is different than the Infested Kerrigan that forced him to kill Razzagal. I definitely want to see what's going on in Zeratul's mind. Way I see it, he incidentally already got a degree of revenge on her by compelling her to become Zerg again. Her chance at simple happiness is virtually gone now. In a sense he took her humanity by her own hand, just as she took his honor by his own hand. It would be interesting if he found it empty and thus chose to let go of his hatred for her.

When we look at RAynor and Kerrigan, Kerrigan very likely would not have become the Queen of blades again if she knew Raynor was alive, that prison scene, i think was great, it kinda laid the foundation of her returning and focusing on the swarm, but even after the mission when you click on her all she thinks of is Jim, and if we take a look at Raynor, before the assault against Mengsk, he looks like he couldnt believe what he said to Kerrigan, i'm pretty sure if any were to die, they would pretty much want to stop living themselves, Raynors already faced the destruction of his family and is the only one pretty much alive, and Kerrigan can relate (in flashpoint theres a scene where he and kerrigan are talking about johnny, his son) But kerrigan, might live and her "queen !@#$% of the universe" personality might come back, if Raynor were to die.

Way I see it:
1) Kerrigan/Raynor live and reunite => Like it or not, you made us want this Blizzard.
2) Kerrigan/Raynor die => Not as good as above. Better than below.
3) Kerrigan dies/Raynor lives => Sad. Grow old without anything that personally matters.
4) Kerrigan lives/Raynor dies => More sad. Long life having lost heart and only genuine love.
5) Kerrigan merges with Protoss/Raynor lives => Same as #3 but more annoying cuz its supposed to be not as sad when it really is.
6) Kerrigan merges with Protoss/Raynor dies => Actually not as sad as #5 but still lame.
7) Kerrigan/Raynor live and part ways => I quit Blizzard.

pretty much the gist of it lol
Posts: 65

7) Kerrigan/Raynor live and part ways => I quit Blizzard.


Yeah, me too...unless Kerrigan says "We'll see each other again" or something, which could make hint a hope for the future, making this endurable.

What about good old cryogenic prison? Kerrigan gets instead of death sentence few thousand years. Raynor could decide that he goes to hibernation as well to eventually be with her.

They would be in similar position as if they were dead. If Blizzard wants them out of picture for SC3 in order to make place for new heroes or something like that. But if they wanted them use again they wouldn't have to revive them (which is always more lame technique).
Protoss would be satisfied because she would be punish.
People who hate happy endings would be less angry because there would be only hope of happy ending.
People who hate unhappy endings would be less angry because it wouldn't be as permanent as death of one of them.


Hmm...unusual idea... though it could work.

If Blizzard wants them out of the picture, they could also set SC3 to happen generations later, maybe 50 years or so. Raynor would be dead (or too old to participate, assuming that his smoking didn't kill him), and Kerrigan will have moved on or be dead for any reason as well.
The protoss characters live on...though the situation in the Koprulu sector could change a lot on 50 years, setting the premises for a new game.

It's just an idea though
Edited by Sygnious on 5/7/2013 11:02 AM PDT
Posts: 52
Every queen needs a king...
Posts: 31,639
Explain please. You might have missed my point there.


Raynor originally thought saving Kerrigan via Zeratul's warning was for the two of them to be together right away, but that's not the purpose.
Posts: 31,639
He could use Jim as a hostage. No new plot device there, but nonetheless effective. Also she made some bad decisions when she thought he was dead the first time (granted, if we are to believe that her re-rebirth was required, it turned out good in the end), so I tend to think of her as unstable without Jim's grizzled looks to temper her sizzling rage.


This is exactly what I believe Amon would do. Mengsk tried this, the idea was sound, he just didn't have a strong enough army to keep in on his terms. Amon, on the other hand, has a better army, and so things would work better.
Posts: 31,639
05/06/2013 10:21 PMPosted by MajorFoley


Hmm...I wonder if we may be forgetting something...or someone: Zeratul in the shadows to the rescue!
If Amon attempts using Jim against Sarah, it could be good opportunity for Zeratul to show heroism.

You gotta remember, while he MAY and (its a very big MAY) do that, its highly unlikely, you know what happened to his matriarch, he still hates kerrigan, his pretty much like others using her mainly because he wants to see everything survive. When we look at RAynor and Kerrigan, Kerrigan very likely would not have become the Queen of blades again if she knew Raynor was alive, that prison scene, i think was great, it kinda laid the foundation of her returning and focusing on the swarm, but even after the mission when you click on her all she thinks of is Jim, and if we take a look at Raynor, before the assault against Mengsk, he looks like he couldnt believe what he said to Kerrigan, i'm pretty sure if any were to die, they would pretty much want to stop living themselves, Raynors already faced the destruction of his family and is the only one pretty much alive, and Kerrigan can relate (in flashpoint theres a scene where he and kerrigan are talking about johnny, his son) But kerrigan, might live and her "queen !@#$% of the universe" personality might come back, if Raynor were to die.


And this I think is going to be a major problem in LotV. Zeratul did help Kerrigan with telling her about Zerus and all that, but he never said that there wouldn't be retribution once the war with Amon is over.

Besides, Zeratul knows the Protoss would have to pull their weight in this war. Everything Kerrigan did in HotS was all to avenge Raynor's "death", and then to rescue him. There's no guarantee she really even cares if Amon kills the whole Protoss race.
Posts: 31,639
Yeah, me too...unless Kerrigan says "We'll see each other again" or something, which could make hint a hope for the future, making this endurable.


Hell no. I'm not accepting that as an ending, then Blizzard takes 20,000 years before SC3 gets off the ground to continue their relationship.

Way I see it:
1) Kerrigan/Raynor live and reunite => Like it or not, you made us want this Blizzard.
2) Kerrigan/Raynor die => Not as good as above. Better than below.
3) Kerrigan dies/Raynor lives => Sad. Grow old without anything that personally matters.
4) Kerrigan lives/Raynor dies => More sad. Long life having lost heart and only genuine love.
5) Kerrigan merges with Protoss/Raynor lives => Same as #3 but more annoying cuz its supposed to be not as sad when it really is.
6) Kerrigan merges with Protoss/Raynor dies => Actually not as sad as #5 but still lame.
7) Kerrigan/Raynor live and part ways => I quit Blizzard.


The problem with point #1 is this: because Kerrigan is currently a Primal Zerg/Terran hybrid, she has the characteristics of the primal Zerg, which in turn prevents her from aging and dying. In fact, she can only die if physically killed on the battlefield and her essence assimilated by someone else.

In comparison, Raynor will continue to age one way or another. In the book SC Ghost Nova, it's said that terrans can average to live about 150 years or more, and Raynor is only 34 by the time of HotS. So, there's still a long ways to go, but sooner or later Kerrigan has to face the fact that Raynor would have to die from old age.

Unless, of course, we see Blizzard pulling a trick like in LotR: Return of the King. Think Arwen, daughter of the Elf Elrond, who held deep feelings for Aragorn. Her father made it clear that Aragorn would have to die of old age, while she'd remain youthful as an Elf. But at the end of the film, she chose to sacrifice her immortality to be with him.

I'm sure you can see the comparison and similarity here...
Edited by ragnarok on 5/7/2013 4:52 PM PDT
Posts: 322

The problem with point #1 is this: because Kerrigan is currently a Primal Zerg/Terran hybrid, she has the characteristics of the primal Zerg, which in turn prevents her from aging and dying. In fact, she can only die if physically killed on the battlefield and her essence assimilated by someone else.

In comparison, Raynor will continue to age one way or another. In the book SC Ghost Nova, it's said that terrans can average to live about 150 years or more, and Raynor is only 34 by the time of HotS. So, there's still a long ways to go, but sooner or later Kerrigan has to face the fact that Raynor would have to die from old age.


Well there is still the potential to extend Jim's life span using information obtained from the zerg or even genetic modification. After all in terms of genetic engineering the zerg are well ahead of the terrans. It may not even be necessary to make it so that he's ageless she would just need a means of restoring his body to a youthful state. This could be far less invasive then gene splicing as it wouldn't require alterations to his genetic code just repairs. Combine Terran medical technology with Zerg genetic engineering and you could come up with something impressive.

There is also the option of her infection Raynor with a symbiont as discussed on another threat. A living organism that would work to maintain his body on a genetic level and perhaps even offer some augmentation. Such as serving as a natural stim pack whenever he needed or perhaps being able to accelerate his healing not through genetic engineering but perhaps usings its own cells to mimic his in the event of taking damage.

Another possibility which I'm not sure if this one is possible depending on how psionics work in the Starcraft universe as well as the notion of a self that isn't just the body. What I wonder is if Kerrigan could use her psionics to absorb not just Jim's essence but to actually absorbing his mind into her body. Now I'm not talking about a fusion like what the protoss do. I'm talking about their minds remaining separate but Jim living on within hers. Given how powerful of a psionic Kerrigan is as the primal queen of blades I'm fairly certain she could house Jim's mind within her own. He would never have to worry about losing her again and she could keep him all to herself.
Posts: 1,050
05/07/2013 04:47 PMPosted by ragnarok
The problem with point #1 is this: because Kerrigan is currently a Primal Zerg/Terran hybrid, she has the characteristics of the primal Zerg, which in turn prevents her from aging and dying.

Frankly, I think most people would want even a few years with somebody that they love as opposed to nothing at all. Even if Jim eventually dies from old age I would still think it would be worth it to them.

In fact, she can only die if physically killed on the battlefield and her essence assimilated by someone else.

Is there evidence to that claim? I don't think you have to assimilate her essence to permanently kill her. It is just an option if you happen to be a Primal Zerg or perhaps a Xel Naga or a hybrid.
Edited by DarthTimmy on 5/7/2013 5:43 PM PDT
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