StarCraft® II

Jim and Sarah

Posts: 21,402
What change in her ways are you referring to? How she saw herself or perhaps how she saw others? You actually have me thinking about two things. Would Kerrigan have stopped to save Egon if it hadn't been for all the time Jim spent with her during her recovery?


Among those things, and why she fought the hybrid toward the end of the book.
Posts: 21,402
Because at the time she believed Mengsk was still innocent to her, forgiven her etc,, you gotta remember he wanted to control Raynor and Kerrigan and then throw them away whenever he had the chance, he saw the effect Kerrigan was having on Raynor. I think she wouldve stopped them from being used


Exactly my point, which is why towards the end of HotS, I believe Kerrigan would still remain somewhat bitter at Zeratul and the Protoss.

After being used by the Confederacy, by Mengsk, and then the Zerg, Raynor's actions at the end of WoL was supposed to have been the end of the nightmare, but because of this whole Xel'Naga prophecy, she just got thrown into another one.

To that end, Kerrigan would be unhappy about it because now even the Protoss are using her for their own ends.
Posts: 896
Also do you believe Kerrigan has become a better person then she was before? Now I know she questioned Mengsk over the psi emitters and his decision to use them but she still helped him set them up. Do you believe she would do something similar again or this time would she try to stop them from being used?

Mengsk was somebody that she wanted to keep faith in. He had forgiven her for murdering his family and given her a place of her own choosing in life.

"Once we've dealt with the Protoss we can do something about the Zerg. Arcturus will come around... I know he will."

I believe Kerrigan expected Mengsk to save Tarsonis and all its innocent civilians once the Confederates had been broken. Now I can't say that was a realistic expectation, but I believe she was blinded by desperately wanting to believe in the first man that had ever shown her mercy and respect. Had she not held Arcturus in such high regard, I believe she would have intervened or at least refused to help.

Besides, even Raynor stood by while Arcturus activated the psi emitters on Tarsonis, and Raynor is the sort of person who clearly would stand against that sort of thing. Yet Raynor didn't officially turn on Arcturus until Kerrigan had been left behind and it was clear that Arcturus was happy to see the planet damned.
Edited by DarthTimmy on 5/12/2013 11:00 PM PDT
Posts: 360
"Once we've dealt with the Protoss we can do something about the Zerg. Arcturus will come around... I know he will."

I believe Kerrigan expected Mengsk to save Tarsonis and all its innocent civilians once the Confederates had been broken.

and that line is the pretty much the cause of kerrigans anger spiraling out of control, being betrayed by the person she thought would free her from her slavery, only to find out she had been used, again
Posts: 322
@ Majorfoley and Darktimmy as well you both told me about the same thing.

It is kind of funny how that worked out. Kerrigan tells Jim not to confront the swarm then she strands him on the planet covered with the zerg. Yet apparently she was providing the survivors with a safe zone. I wonder if she destroyed all his ships because she had little choice or because she wanted to keep him there. That would fit with the theory of her hoping to find a way to turn Raynor into something more like herself. If she couldn't be part of his world perhaps she wanted to make him part of hers.

I have to ask though. Given how Kerrigan manipulated the Overmind in Queen of Blades to get her way do you believe Kerrigan would have remained its servant even without the intervention from Tassadar? I know this is off subject but it just seemed to me that she might have been thinking of ways to kill the Overmind nearly the day of her creation.

As for the psi emitters. You both have a fair point. Given Kerrigan's history I can see her wanting to trust in someone even whenever they seemed hard to believe. I wasn't aware of that line about handling the situation with the protoss and the zerg. So helping him set up the psi emitters could be more a case of poor judgment rather then a failure of ethics.

Just a funny thought. With how people in the past have seen Kerrigan as a tool to be used do you believe it angered her that Valerian thought of her as an experiment to learn from or perhaps a means to control the swarm? At least that could have been the impression she got from how he treated her in the beginning of HoTS.
Edited by Inprea on 5/13/2013 7:46 AM PDT
Posts: 360
I have to ask though. Given how Kerrigan manipulated the Overmind in Queen of Blades to get her way do you believe Kerrigan would have remained its servant even without the intervention from Tassadar? I know this is off subject but it just seemed to me that she might have been thinking of ways to kill the Overmind nearly the day of her creation.

The overmind pretty much planned it, the overmind is not Amon himself, but his slave. remember the prophecy mission when zeratl sees tassadar? the overmind foresaw his dead, he knew kerrigan would free his zerg, but pretty much the only way that could happen, is if he were to be killed and whos to say his dead, his a giant zerg entity, he could likely be reincarnated, you never know. The overmind wanted her to have more freedom in that way

05/13/2013 06:29 AMPosted by Inprea
That would fit with the theory of her hoping to find a way to turn Raynor into something more like herself. If she couldn't be part of his world perhaps she wanted to make him part of hers.

She didnt want him dead, even when the cerebrates pressured her, even after the dreams went from pleasant, to disturbing nightmares, she didnt give up on him, she still wanted him, and he her (obviously he wanted her back human)

Just a funny thought. With how people in the past have seen Kerrigan as a tool to be used do you believe it angered her that Valerian thought of her as an experiment to learn from or perhaps a means to control the swarm? At least that could have been the impression she got from how he treated her in the beginning of HoTS.

I think it would've but Kerrigan trusts Jim, but just because she trusts him doesn't mean she has to like it, and no, i believe they were just testing her to see what control of the zerg she still had after her de-infestation, but that impression does seem to start at first, she even teachers her a lesson because of it lol
Posts: 65
That would fit with the theory of her hoping to find a way to turn Raynor into something more like herself. If she couldn't be part of his world perhaps she wanted to make him part of hers.

She didnt want him dead, even when the cerebrates pressured her, even after the dreams went from pleasant, to disturbing nightmares, she didnt give up on him, she still wanted him, and he her (obviously he wanted her back human)


Hmm...it seems anyway that her quest for power got first priority. If not, would she have turned against Jim, Fenix and Arcturus on Korhal?
I don't believe she was blind to the price of her actions at that moment: Alienating Jim.
Posts: 322
05/13/2013 09:27 AMPosted by Sygnious

She didnt want him dead, even when the cerebrates pressured her, even after the dreams went from pleasant, to disturbing nightmares, she didnt give up on him, she still wanted him, and he her (obviously he wanted her back human)


Hmm...it seems anyway that her quest for power got first priority. If not, would she have turned against Jim, Fenix and Arcturus on Korhal?
I don't believe she was blind to the price of her actions at that moment: Alienating Jim.


Well if she can find a way to infest terrans while preserving what she desires from them alienating Jim really doesn't matter.
Posts: 21,402
"Once we've dealt with the Protoss we can do something about the Zerg. Arcturus will come around... I know he will."

I believe Kerrigan expected Mengsk to save Tarsonis and all its innocent civilians once the Confederates had been broken.

and that line is the pretty much the cause of kerrigans anger spiraling out of control, being betrayed by the person she thought would free her from her slavery, only to find out she had been used, again


THIS was one of the things I hated about the Queen of Blades book. According to that book, when Kerrigan reached Raynor's base, Raynor told her that Mengsk betrayed her. Initially, Kerrigan didn't believe it. She thought Mengsk just didn't make it in time to save her.
Posts: 21,402
Now I can't say that was a realistic expectation, but I believe she was blinded by desperately wanting to believe in the first man that had ever shown her mercy and respect. Had she not held Arcturus in such high regard, I believe she would have intervened or at least refused to help.


It was also was she might have felt remorseful to Raynor. He had tried to warn her several times that Mengsk was plotting against her in some way, but she didn't accept it.
Posts: 896
Just a funny thought. With how people in the past have seen Kerrigan as a tool to be used do you believe it angered her that Valerian thought of her as an experiment to learn from or perhaps a means to control the swarm? At least that could have been the impression she got from how he treated her in the beginning of HoTS.

I read the Hope and Vengeance comic. It was pretty clear that she was reading his mind the whole time he was observing her. I believe she knew that he was trying to think of himself as something different than those who had used her before. He thought of himself as trying to help by learning. Given that the inexperienced are often taken to thinking better of themselves than they ought, I don't believe Kerrigan was really convinced that Valerian was any different until the last few missions in HotS.

As far as controlling Zerg goes, he was approaching it with the neutrality of a scientist who has no idea what he is dabbling with. She gave him an appropriate slap on the wrist.

Hmm...it seems anyway that her quest for power got first priority. If not, would she have turned against Jim, Fenix and Arcturus on Korhal?
I don't believe she was blind to the price of her actions at that moment: Alienating Jim.
Actually, I believe she was blind to the price. I didn't read QoB, but I am betting she was drunk with her newfound power and unbridled bloodlust. There was a probably a part of her that took for granted that Jim would forgive anything she did because of how he felt for her. I think she repeated this thought process when she betrayed him on Korhal. His response to her on Korhal seemed to hit her pretty hard. She had slain his Protoss and Terran allies before, but she had never before gotten Jim to the point where he truly hated her.
Edited by DarthTimmy on 5/13/2013 7:15 PM PDT
Posts: 21,402
Actually, I believe she was blind to the price. I didn't read QoB, but I am betting she was drunk with her newfound power and unbridled bloodlust.


Not that, she realized she was used again, and her anger spiraled out of control.

It happened once again during the Brood War, after Fenix's death. After Raynor swore to kill her, Kerrigan felt she finally lost him, and there was nothing left for her except the bloodlust and killing.

This was somewhat scene in HotS during the "Believe in Me" scene, but Kerrigan already knew she'd receive a reception like that even before infiltrating the Moros.
Posts: 360
This was somewhat scene in HotS during the "Believe in Me" scene, but Kerrigan already knew she'd receive a reception like that even before infiltrating the Moros.

Because she undid all his hard work, he thought he lost her again, didnt even give her time to explain, she didnt know he was very nearly close to pulling the trigger, i think it shocked her that he DID fire and that another part of him chose to miss, he was and probably still is conflicted, even though she left at the end, hmm he didnt even get to use his justice bullet
Posts: 21,402
05/14/2013 12:20 AMPosted by MajorFoley
This was somewhat scene in HotS during the "Believe in Me" scene, but Kerrigan already knew she'd receive a reception like that even before infiltrating the Moros.

Because she undid all his hard work, he thought he lost her again, didnt even give her time to explain, she didnt know he was very nearly close to pulling the trigger, i think it shocked her that he DID fire and that another part of him chose to miss, he was and probably still is conflicted, even though she left at the end, hmm he didnt even get to use his justice bullet


Actually, I think she DID expect Raynor to shoot, because she was prepared to accept that he would have reached his limit at that point. Even then, it was still almost too much for her to take given what Raynor said.
Posts: 322
I wonder how long Raynor was in that cell and how long he had been in isolation. After all isolation tends to be rather bad for the human mind. He might have been dreaming about Sarah coming to get him for quite some time. Especially how he imagined her whenever she first broke in the door.

Does anyone think Raynor would have still fired those shots if he had been well wrested and in good health upon seeing Sarah or do you believe after spending all that time in a prison cell that isn't quite up to humanitarian standards his judgment might have been impaired?
Posts: 65

Hmm...it seems anyway that her quest for power got first priority. If not, would she have turned against Jim, Fenix and Arcturus on Korhal?
I don't believe she was blind to the price of her actions at that moment: Alienating Jim.

Actually, I believe she was blind to the price. I didn't read QoB, but I am betting she was drunk with her newfound power and unbridled bloodlust. There was a probably a part of her that took for granted that Jim would forgive anything she did because of how he felt for her. I think she repeated this thought process when she betrayed him on Korhal. His response to her on Korhal seemed to hit her pretty hard. She had slain his Protoss and Terran allies before, but she had never before gotten Jim to the point where he truly hated her.


I find that implausible. This is what she said during the briefing of the mission "True colors" on Brood War, when she turned on Jim, Fenix and Mengsk:
"They are of no futher use to me. Though they have proven themselves useful, it might be dangerous to allow them to live. Without the services of General Duke, Mengsk will be easy to deal with. But Raynor and Fenix are uncannily resourceful. "Sigh" They must all be eradicated. Cerecrate, I want both General Duke's and Fenix's bases destroyed. Leave no one alive".

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjWRSv8AD9w

Though she doesn't explicitly say "Kill Raynor" in same sentence, speaking of them as dangerous and ordering the cerebrate to kill everyone is too strong implication to me to believe that Kerrigan didn't know this would turn Jim against her. She more or less described him as a threat.

Unless Blizzard or an author changed that lore?
Or unless Kerrigan was decieving Duran and the cerebrate, thinking of ways to spare Jim if got he directly involved in a confrontation against her or the Swarm?

05/13/2013 09:52 PMPosted by ragnarok
Actually, I believe she was blind to the price. I didn't read QoB, but I am betting she was drunk with her newfound power and unbridled bloodlust.


Not that, she realized she was used again, and her anger spiraled out of control.

It happened once again during the Brood War, after Fenix's death. After Raynor swore to kill her, Kerrigan felt she finally lost him, and there was nothing left for her except the bloodlust and killing.


Used again? Anger spiraled out of control? When?

Are you refering to taking Korhal back for Mengsk, from the UED?
If this is lore from some books I haven't read then fine.
But otherwise:
Helping Mengsk retake Korhal was part of a deal: He loaned her a psi emitter so that she could gather zerg om Braxis and destroy the Psi Distruptor. And she helped him retake Korhal because that was the UED's primary staging point.

hmm he didnt even get to use his justice bullet


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

I wonder how long Raynor was in that cell and how long he had been in isolation. After all isolation tends to be rather bad for the human mind. He might have been dreaming about Sarah coming to get him for quite some time. Especially how he imagined her whenever she first broke in the door.

Does anyone think Raynor would have still fired those shots if he had been well wrested and in good health upon seeing Sarah or do you believe after spending all that time in a prison cell that isn't quite up to humanitarian standards his judgment might have been impaired?


It took Jim two weeks to reach Char the first time after plotting the coordinates in QoB.
Zeratul describes Zerus as "far beyond the Koprulu Sector, where no terran has ventured before"
Hmm....I'm making a guess that Jim was in prison for about 2-3 months.
Edited by Sygnious on 5/14/2013 9:51 AM PDT
Posts: 322

It took Jim two weeks to reach Char the first time after plotting the coordinates in QoB.
Zeratul describes Zerus as "far beyond the Koprulu Sector, where no terran has ventured before"
Hmm....I'm making a guess that Jim was in prison for about 2-3 months.


I believe that might also depend on if you took out the dominion station first as well. It may have been much longer though after all the first time Kerrigan was turned into the Queen of Blades it was roughly a six week process.

Plus after finding out the first mission on Zerus took days after speaking with Abather I'm reluctant to guess at how long each mission actually took. Did Kerrigan's siege on Warfield's base last for hours, days, weeks or longer? I have to speculate it was less then a two week siege as surely the Dominion would have sent support by then.

In any case even if it was just two months I have to think two months in those kind of conditions would at least begin to do funny things to your head.
Posts: 21,402
I wonder how long Raynor was in that cell and how long he had been in isolation. After all isolation tends to be rather bad for the human mind. He might have been dreaming about Sarah coming to get him for quite some time. Especially how he imagined her whenever she first broke in the door.

Does anyone think Raynor would have still fired those shots if he had been well wrested and in good health upon seeing Sarah or do you believe after spending all that time in a prison cell that isn't quite up to humanitarian standards his judgment might have been impaired?


Not likely, to see Kerrigan infested again would undo it all.
Posts: 21,402
Used again? Anger spiraled out of control? When?

Are you refering to taking Korhal back for Mengsk, from the UED?
If this is lore from some books I haven't read then fine.
But otherwise:
Helping Mengsk retake Korhal was part of a deal: He loaned her a psi emitter so that she could gather zerg om Braxis and destroy the Psi Distruptor. And she helped him retake Korhal because that was the UED's primary staging point.


Not that, when Raynor swore to kill her back in the BW, Kerrigan at that moment felt he finally gave up on her, and therefore she had nothing left. Combined with Amon's influence, it made her rage go out of control.

It took Jim two weeks to reach Char the first time after plotting the coordinates in QoB.
Zeratul describes Zerus as "far beyond the Koprulu Sector, where no terran has ventured before"
Hmm....I'm making a guess that Jim was in prison for about 2-3 months.


It's not 2-3 months. The WHOLE of HotS only spanned for about ONE month. It began in late Nov/early Dec 2504, it ended in late Dec 2504/early Jan 2505.
Posts: 322
I wonder how long Raynor was in that cell and how long he had been in isolation. After all isolation tends to be rather bad for the human mind. He might have been dreaming about Sarah coming to get him for quite some time. Especially how he imagined her whenever she first broke in the door.

Does anyone think Raynor would have still fired those shots if he had been well wrested and in good health upon seeing Sarah or do you believe after spending all that time in a prison cell that isn't quite up to humanitarian standards his judgment might have been impaired?


Not likely, to see Kerrigan infested again would undo it all.


Undo all of what? I'm afraid your statement isn't very clear to me. Are you saying seeing her again would have undone a long period of isolation and possible abuse?


It's not 2-3 months. The WHOLE of HotS only spanned for about ONE month. It began in late Nov/early Dec 2504, it ended in late Dec 2504/early Jan 2505.


Where did you get that information? As if that is indeed the official time table all I can say is Kerrigan must have been an absolute blitz. Heck how did she even travel that quickly? Either travel times in Starcraft 2 have been greatly reduced or leviathans have to make Terran faster then light travel look painfully slow.
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]