StarCraft® II

Call to Action: May 2 Balance Testing

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Posts: 219
The spore change has already been tried, and it will do nothing this time too. Mutalisks are about map control. Forcing Zerg to turtle in his base behind Spores in ZvZ is suicide.


Yep, I think what will happen is players will fake out the other with 7 or so Mutas and make them panic with a bunch of spores. Then just transition into a ground army. That's IF this does anything to keep us from making mass Mutas... which I doubt.
Posts: 260
Where is the ZvT help? This MU is too difficult for Z right now.
Posts: 12,320
Why is this? I can tell you it isn't because they are too slow, it is because it doesn't do !@#$ once a turret comes up or it has to engage an army.

The Oracle is better at engaging a Turret or army than an equal cost/supply of Mutalisks, provided they have energy.

Buffing Oracle speed is akin to giving Mutas increased regen. It makes the units stronger at the only role they're good at.
I proposed reducing the stats of the Oracle by a third.
It would have made the Protoss spend a bit more time building the extra Oracles (weakening proxy Stargate), but given them an increased energy pool and health per cost, as well as making each Oracle loss less of a big deal.
In the beta I used them like a flying Hellion, they are great for killing Zerglings trying to snipe an expansion, or cleaning up a Marine drop, probably better than any other unit for these roles.
But they obviously have their weaknesses.

The Mutalisks sucks the way it is right now.
Edited by Fawxkitteh on 5/3/2013 3:02 PM PDT
Posts: 427
hey,

here s my feedback after playing 10 custom games. i m grandmaster protoss on EU.

Spore change:

In zvz i had the feeling that muta vs muta got even more stupid, because now if you have a muta lead you still can t attack, because the other guy will just camp in spores.
Infestor/Hydralisk still isn t possible, because the economic lead for the Muta zerg is still pretty big, also yea spores do a lot (really a lot) of damage, but it s easy to micro the attacked mutalisk away and still kill spores very fast without losses early on.
The only potential thing i figured out is, that maybe when the first ~10 mutas pop the Hydra player might be able to attack easier, because he easier able to defend his bases with spores.

Burrow change:

ZvZ: no impact in my opinion, can t really be used
ZvT: well the roach burrow rushes didn t get stronger, the 50 50 difference don t have a lot of impact
ZvP: Gateway openings got weaker, because 50 50 is easily afforded by the zerg and well you never have detection if you go for a gateway aggression build
I don t like that the Zerg might be able to just spend 50 50 to be more or less safe.

Oracle change:
PvZ: oracles still suck, spores+queens are still shutting them down pretty easy, Revelation doesn t have potential in PvZ in my opinion as long as it doesn t detect.

PvT: Revelation now has far more use, it s far easier to turn when casting it.

PvP: proxy oracle too strong, counters a lot and is just tooooooooooo gimmicky. Stargate openings are already too good now, but get even more dominant now, pvp is just getting more gay every day

General Comments about oracles+ 1 special thing:

i think increasing the acceleration is great, but i think there s a much better option to increase the viabilty of oracles throughout the midgame.
So what is it?
Remove the 25 energy activation cost just like it already was.
Why would that help Oracles?
Well now if you attack with oracles it s a lot more of a commitment because you re already spending 25 energy just to do something. Removing the basic energy cost would help small attacks, then it would be possible to run in, even when there s a defensive structure and kill 1 harvester and still get out, just like you re trying to design the unit!!!

Now to my special case:

Is it really too hard to make Probes able to slide through building depots?
it s stupid that i always lose a probe while trying to scout my opponent if he s terran.

Just plain stupid!


You make a lot of good points, but I don't think people/Blizzard will take your words very seriously when you say crap like pvp is even more gay now; grow up
Edited by Serenity on 5/3/2013 3:16 PM PDT
Posts: 646
I guess blizzards idea is that a mutalisk build will be made completely unsafe, because a hydra build will be able to move out with 20 hydras and some roaches against the muta player and kill them, and the muta player wont be able to counterattack...

maybe, with a nydus worm, this makes sense, the issue is the defending zerg can reinforce, and muta ling does pretty damn well vs roach hydra, with the mutas automatically killing the hydras, and then killing the roaches with impunity.

In short, the only build helped by the spore change is a hydralisk all in off of two base... if its a sure thing vs a muta player than great, blizz fixed the matchup... but I doubt it will be, a few spines and all of a sudden the hydra push does nothing and the spire player gains map control, expands 3 times and mutaclouds the 2 base hydra player to death
Edited by Evoslayer on 5/3/2013 3:43 PM PDT
Posts: 1,073
I already mass spores in ZvZ(if the match lasts long enough for this to happen).. if this goes through, I am officially immune to mutalisks.. Though mutas were never my issue with zvz. baneling wars are what pisses me off.

Oh well. I don't think this change is nessesary, 30 dmg vs muta spores are lots. I think a change this dramatic will completely REMOVE mutalisks from zvz which i don't think is a good thing. Any and every unit should be viable in any matchup.

if a zerg shows up in my base with mutas and starts killing my drones, my immediate thought is, 'crap i didn't make enough spores'. not, 'OMG MUTAS OP'.

well w/e. if blizzard is looking to swing the buff stick, hit corrupters with it. nerf stick? hit Terran Scanner sweep. thanks.

as for faster oracles... i dunno. don't care. 1 spore in your mineral line shuts them down pretty hard so fast or not, they aren't gonna live to take many(if any) drones down. w/e.
Edited by Meneliki on 5/3/2013 3:56 PM PDT
Posts: 678
Damage increased from 15 +15 vs. biological to 15 +30 vs. biological


so spores now do 45 dmg to mutas now?

Lol. why not give hydras bonus vs bio?
Posts: 1,851

so spores now do 45 dmg to mutas now?

Lol. why not give hydras bonus vs bio?


Because Blizzard gets all collective panties in a bunch if anyone so much as whispers "hydra buff."

Hydras were ubiquitous in Broodwar. Mass hydra was about as common as marines are now. And Blizzard is hell-bent on trying to be different from BW and they don't want hydras to be a core unit because of that (the same argument applies to siege tanks as well, which is why they wont buff tanks despite doing so would balance out mech quite nicely). They took the same approach with Diablo 3 as well, and tried hard to reinvent the game instead of just building on what they already had with D2. When they refused to bring back the Necromancer class a lot of people were upset/pissed.

The only thing is that changing things for the sake of change is NEVER, ever a good idea. Actually, most of the time its a bad idea. And Blizzard is too stubborn to admit that.

And that, in a nutshell, is why BW is better than SC2, and why D2 is better than D3.
Edited by DeadWombat on 5/3/2013 5:00 PM PDT
Posts: 427
05/03/2013 04:42 PMPosted by Rudecrew
Damage increased from 15 +15 vs. biological to 15 +30 vs. biological


so spores now do 45 dmg to mutas now?

Lol. why not give hydras bonus vs bio?


This seems super obvious to me too, though I would make them have bonus vs. all air, not just bio air; this would help with skytoss as well, thus killing 2 birds with one stone
Posts: 260
Oracles cost 150/150 so if you lose them to 1 widow mine or a static defense you are way behind. This buff was definitely needed.
Posts: 3,485
I think the burrow change will hit ZvZ harder then anything. I plan to skip ling speed early in favor of burrow bling defense. No longer having to worry about baneling roulette
Posts: 3,591
did you know they can counter hydralisk already?

now they are going to be countering mutas and hydras and they are tooo fast you ned to definatly NOT implement that one

zerg burrow? i dont see a need for the cost reduction it is merely an incentive to use this am I right? cause the cost is not gonna change much of anything except make people say hmm i will try this more but we SHOULD BE USING AS IT IS ALREADY so I say this is not a good idea also

spore buff again?? this is totally going in the wrong direction buff the hydra as it needs it already and you solve 2 problems with one thing implemented so yes thats another bad idea

BUT OUT OF ALL THESE THE ORACLE IS GOING TO BREAK THINGS EVEN MORE THAN THEY ARE ALREADY

keep in mind players still have not been learning how to abuse all the new things that are implemented since release of HotS

like mines
http://www.twitch.tv/egstephano/b/388321796?t=404m5s

thats stephano playing like a boss and losing to mas mines cause of the fact --- they are dirt cheap and give LARGE REWARDS and require NO SKILL OR MICRO TO USE

medvacs
OP as hell and its not in full bloom yet-- only a small percentage of terrans abuse the fact that you can use them to get past any AA cause of boost and you can totally by pass or retreat unscathed when using them its simply an OP ability with no drawbacks

swarm host this is good and only needs supply reduced to 2 (from3) this unit is not being used to its fullest either I hear it needs buffs in al which ways but I say NO only a supply reduction to 2 and it will be fine

mutas
have to many hard counters period it would be nice if my 10 mutas 1000/1000 did not get shut down by 10 marines or 1 turret in scv line because of repair and phoniexs that have 7 range and are faster than mutas and toss still just leave them in there base instead of microing them to victory I saw this even by the American pro player in the torny he leaves his phoenixes in his base and only defends with them but he should have been out killing mutas whenever possible

mines need some serious reworking just to powerful and too cheap and no skill or apm to make it successful

AIR TOSS
??????????
are you going to fix it?
zerg can possibly do the BS ways around it until toss finally learn to defend it properly while getting a high number of voids / carreir/ tempest /templar

we are BS our way around it to survive and its not fair in the past you reward toss for playing bad phoenix had 5 range already in wol to counter mutas you finially gave them an upgrade to make it 7 ( which was totally unjustified they dont want to micro them to victory then let them lose and make them get better instead you gave them the upgrade and we still hear some baddies today saying they cant win despite all the options archons high templar storms cannons stalkers)

PLEASE STOP REWARDING BAD PLAY

that is what you are doing with the
oracle (big issue they are way to good at what they do already let them get better dont reward bad play)
burrow cost(whatever we dont need it wee need to use it more not be rewarded for using it less)
Edited by KingofQueens on 5/3/2013 6:11 PM PDT
Posts: 87
Blizzard, when are you going to change the corruptor already? The issue with mutas in zvz, unbeatable toss air armies in ZvP, and others could all be fixed by changing the corruptor. It's a terrible unit that is never the best unit choice except against vikings, which never happens unless you've decided to build broodlords for some stupid reason. In almost every situation vipers, hydras, or mutas offer a more appealing choice. It literally serves no purpose in any match-up; please change it.
Edited by Tempest on 5/3/2013 6:06 PM PDT
Posts: 3,591
Blizzard, when are you going to change the corruptor already? The issue with mutas in zvz, unbeatable toss air armies in ZvP, and others could all be fixed by changing the corruptor. It's a terrible unit that is never the best unit choice except against vikings, which never happens unless you've decided to build broodlords for some stupid reason. In almost every situation vipers, hydras, or mutas offer a more appealing choice. It literally serves no purpose in any match-up; please change it.
ya very true I forgot about this this would actually be way better than buffing the hydra in every way and would make the corruptor have some use
Posts: 839
Interesting changes. Looking forward to so how these will play out.

Oh, and is this an admission that Mutas are TOO strong???


No. Just that zerg AA is a complete and utter joke.
Posts: 839
Blizzard, when are you going to change the corruptor already? The issue with mutas in zvz, unbeatable toss air armies in ZvP, and others could all be fixed by changing the corruptor. It's a terrible unit that is never the best unit choice except against vikings, which never happens unless you've decided to build broodlords for some stupid reason. In almost every situation vipers, hydras, or mutas offer a more appealing choice. It literally serves no purpose in any match-up; please change it.


Also this.
Posts: 6,558
did you know they can counter hydralisk already?

now they are going to be countering mutas and hydras and they are tooo fast you ned to definatly NOT implement that one

zerg burrow? i dont see a need for the cost reduction it is merely an incentive to use this am I right? cause the cost is not gonna change much of anything except make people say hmm i will try this more but we SHOULD BE USING AS IT IS ALREADY so I say this is not a good idea also

spore buff again?? this is totally going in the wrong direction buff the hydra as it needs it already and you solve 2 problems with one thing implemented so yes thats another bad idea

BUT OUT OF ALL THESE THE ORACLE IS GOING TO BREAK THINGS EVEN MORE THAN THEY ARE ALREADY

keep in mind players still have not been learning how to abuse all the new things that are implemented since release of HotS

like mines
http://www.twitch.tv/egstephano/b/388321796?t=404m5s

thats stephano playing like a boss and losing to mas mines cause of the fact --- they are dirt cheap and give LARGE REWARDS and require NO SKILL OR MICRO TO USE

medvacs
OP as hell and its not in full bloom yet-- only a small percentage of terrans abuse the fact that you can use them to get past any AA cause of boost and you can totally by pass or retreat unscathed when using them its simply an OP ability with no drawbacks

swarm host this is good and only needs supply reduced to 2 (from3) this unit is not being used to its fullest either I hear it needs buffs in al which ways but I say NO only a supply reduction to 2 and it will be fine

mutas
have to many hard counters period it would be nice if my 10 mutas 1000/1000 did not get shut down by 10 marines or 1 turret in scv line because of repair and phoniexs that have 7 range and are faster than mutas and toss still just leave them in there base instead of microing them to victory I saw this even by the American pro player in the torny he leaves his phoenixes in his base and only defends with them but he should have been out killing mutas whenever possible

mines need some serious reworking just to powerful and too cheap and no skill or apm to make it successful

AIR TOSS
??????????
are you going to fix it?
zerg can possibly do the BS ways around it until toss finally learn to defend it properly while getting a high number of voids / carreir/ tempest /templar

we are BS our way around it to survive and its not fair in the past you reward toss for playing bad phoenix had 5 range already in wol to counter mutas you finially gave them an upgrade to make it 7 ( which was totally unjustified they dont want to micro them to victory then let them lose and make them get better instead you gave them the upgrade and we still hear some baddies today saying they cant win despite all the options archons high templar storms cannons stalkers)

PLEASE STOP REWARDING BAD PLAY

that is what you are doing with the
oracle (big issue they are way to good at what they do already let them get better dont reward bad play)
burrow cost(whatever we dont need it wee need to use it more not be rewarded for using it less)


your tears are delicious
Posts: 48
corruptors are deadweight when it serves its purpose too. Its the dumbest unit in the entire game only having a strict AA function with a silly corrupt ability that is so circumstantial players dont feel rewarded for having it there.

youre not gonna use corruptors and be like 'oh that changes things'. Lets look at what other race's aa units can do.

Vikings - long range AA, can transform to a subpar ground unit (that is good)
Phoenix - Moves while shooting, and secondary function as as a crowd control in team fights, assert map control by removing stray overlords, harass mineral lines.
Corruptors - CORRUPT.

im sure you guys know this and i've been following your thought processes through reddit and such, but you cannot go through with the idea that corruptors should remain what it is simply because we are forced to make some silly AA units just to get broodlords. Its not strategic. Its painful to watch even in pro games where there is a massive transition from greater spires to broodlords having corruptors do nothing for zerg in the process.

They either need to be sturdier, and have some support abilities or just ancillary function that every other race seem to be getting so many of.

Can corruptors at least create a 1 minute creep pool on death so it helps zerg armies advance?
Posts: 3
What about this?

Oracles: damage related to amount of energy

I think it would make sense if oracles, when you first use them and they haven't accrued energy, did less damage, and when they gain more energy, they do more damage. I don't feel it's appropriate, especially at lower leagues, to straight up lose to mass or proxy oracle early if you didn't make defense, and I the longer oracles are out without doing damage, the more useless they become. This would be a way to fix early game and buff late game oracles.
Posts: 47
My feedback!

Spore crawler buff i'm really wary of. i've been trying to get my friends to test muta vs muta where you get 20+ mutas on both sides. Because i feel as though if the one who is ahead even dares to fight into even a single spore crawler he is going to get obliterated. :( Making it impossible to ever fight unless one muta player REALLY messes up.

Burrow. Yes please! i've been testing this against reaper expands builds going 15 hatch 16 gas 15 pool and delaying one queen to get the burrow asap (before speed even) and this has become my main defense vs reaper harass until my zergling speed finishes as it pops before the terran gets the 3rd reaper or can micro long enough to wear down my queen. If i'm about to lose something i can burrow it till i force them back. This allows for a timing if they follow up with hellions to force a lift on the terran's natural and burrow a ling there and at other bases and below their ramp. Giving much needed scouting and flows perfectly into burrowed banelings. I am loving the utility that this has given zerg. Especially since it doesn't feel as though i have to break the bank to get this upgrade anymore.

Oracle speed i have yet to run into. I'm just sad that they are the same speed as mutas, just really makes me say i'm definitely not ever going to go mutas in ZvP :P They can only kill one of the 5 protoss air units now, 2 have too much health/armor, 1 out runs it and is their counter, and now even the oracle will out run it because as soon as they attack it will be out of range and they will never catch up to it again.
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