StarCraft® II

What's your take on PvP?

As a non-protoss player, I'm curious to get some insight on your feeling about this mirror match. From the outside I can't really scrutinize the fine differences in build orders - 3gates vs 4gates vs I-don't-even-know-gates... it's all Greek to me.

ZvZ is, as everyone knows, a nightmare - and not just because of Mutas. It's because it feels like there's no option beyond doing what your opponent does, but faster and/or better.
Is this the case in PvP? It often looks that way - particularly in regards to Stalkers and Void Rays.

What underused maneuvers, if any, do you want to see used more to diversify the matchup? In what ways is the matchup already diverse? Any information would be enlightening.
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4 gates on 1 base is all in, 3 gates before expand/tech is a "safe" build, 1 gate before tech/expand is greedy and 2 is somewhere in the middle. Expanding is very risky.

I think PvP is in a good spot right now. Although void rays might be a little too powerful because they have +damage vs stalkers, it has become a lot more interesting because you need to find a balance between colossi and void rays rather than just massing colossi.

I would like to see more dt usage.
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PvP was my best matchup in WoL and is now my worst. It has definitely gotten more complex.

From what I understand the meta for the moment revolves around the possibility of DTs or stargate, the 2 most common openers. Stargate is very powerful against robo builds, robo builds are strong against DT, and DT is strong against stargate. Early gateway pressure just changes the pace of the game when scouted, it doesn't play into the "wheel of fortune".

There is also the secondary choice of double gateway vs sentry openers...2xgates is aggressive with stalkers, 1x defensive with sentries. Your choice of either one in combination with your choice of tech really decides your advantage in a major way that feels a bit coinflippy (not in the hardcounter sense, just in the "lets flip 2 coins to see who gets to start out with the handicap). For example when 1 stargate player with sentries clashes with a stalker + stargate the stalker player has the potential to win early.
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I'm freshly dia (perhaps forever plat at heart?), and PvP is my worst MU, but from what I can tell PvP is one of the most robust and strategic matchups - as far away as possible from "doing what your opponent does, but better/faster."

I've lost with phoenix and lost to phoenix, lost with void rays and lost to void rays, attempted and failed to use HTs to counter void rays and then gotten my butt handed to me when I took void rays against HTs.

I recently had a friendly 1v1 with a masters protoss, and I beat him with some weird amalgam of carriers, void rays, colossus, immortal, with a mothership thrown in. He was distracted though, and stalker heavy, which is probably not a winning combination.

Pesto probably knows more than me, but the rock-paper-scissors dynamic is mostly with the opening, and with a few good engages you can easily turn the "wheel of fortune" right back around. Moreover, the rock-paper-scissors dynamic isn't even hard-set, because oracles have envision, and robo openers allow room for good stalker control to handle stargate openers.
Edited by Caelum on 5/9/2013 5:34 PM PDT
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Pesto probably knows more than me, but the rock-paper-scissors dynamic is mostly with the opening, and with a few good engages you can easily turn the "wheel of fortune" right back around. Moreover, the rock-paper-scissors dynamic isn't even hard-set, because oracles have envision, and robo openers allow room for good stalker control to handle stargate openers.


Exactly, that's why I referred to it in terms of 'advantages' rather than wins. Skilled players are going to avoid taking much damage from DTs or oracles/phoenix no matter what their build. It is usually just a matter of which build gets the fastest safe expansion.

I have the most difficulty with managing unit composition in the midgame. Too many voidrays and you can get overwhelmed with zealots. Too many colossus and...voidrays. Too much zealot archon vs. a voidray opener and die to colossus.

It is so easy to technically have the advantage in every respect (econ, supply, upgrades) but still lose to composition and positioning.
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Dang. I'm jealous now. This has been very informative.
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If you understand the units, you will win a lot.

PvP is by far my best match up and I mostly win because of my unit compositions rather than my macro or micro.
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I think PvP is in a good spot right now. Although void rays might be a little too powerful because they have +damage vs stalkers,
'

I've been using stargate / voidray strats since Beta, and I can tell you it's much harder now since players have learned how to beat it. They are not a dominant force in the matchup by any means.
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05/10/2013 01:31 AMPosted by SteeLFoX
I've been using stargate / voidray strats since Beta, and I can tell you it's much harder now since players have learned how to beat it.


How do you beat it? I always lose PvP unless they 4gate me. Then they lose horribly.
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3 stalker rush with MS core opener, i then add a SG and another gatewayh, pressure with stalkers while getting an oracle, works well in diamond.
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Fake 4 gate into 3 gate pressure expand
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05/10/2013 03:28 AMPosted by Kenos
I've been using stargate / voidray strats since Beta, and I can tell you it's much harder now since players have learned how to beat it.


How do you beat it? I always lose PvP unless they 4gate me. Then they lose horribly.


You can go for fast blink to snipe VRs, phoenix, archons, or storm.
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05/09/2013 05:02 PMPosted by Pesto
From what I understand the meta for the moment revolves around the possibility of DTs or stargate, the 2 most common openers.

Really? Maybe I am not at a high enough level yet but I rarely see DT openers. Mostly stargate and robo.

I've been using stargate / voidray strats since Beta, and I can tell you it's much harder now since players have learned how to beat it. They are not a dominant force in the matchup by any means.

Not dominant but using stalkers for AA doesn't do very well vs 4 or 5 void rays.
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DT rush every game. if it fails i double expand and prey they dont attack me.
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Anxiety

3 stalker rush with MS core opener, i then add a SG and another gatewayh, pressure with stalkers while getting an oracle, works well in diamond.


This^. It works great in platinum as well. It got my PvP winrate up to around 60%.
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Control the game..

http://drop.sc/334034
I fell behind at the beginning of this game, played poorly, but I played my playstyle; bought time and caught up to eventually win the game.

After this game, my opponent said "You don't know how to play protoss, you play like a terran. As protoss, you have to go for brute force".

This person has much to learn...
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