StarCraft® II

Map Changes - 5/17

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Updated - 5:00 pm PDT - 5/17/2013: Star Station spawn positions have been updated. Players will now only spawn diagonally while playing on Star Station. No changes have been made to Klontas Mire; however, we will continue to monitor your feedback surrounding potential changes.

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We have a discussion going on with the major tournaments around the world about making Star Station diagonal only spawn positions to make the map more fair in all the matchups. We'd like to get your feedback also before we make this change.

One other thing on maps is there was a really interesting suggestion for Klontas Mire. This map is turning out to be really rush friendly as expected, but one downside was that it also encourages timing all in attacks. So the suggestion was to add destructible towers on the bridge area so that early game rushes are still possible, but all in attacks are delayed in the early mid game.

We know that most people think all 1v1 maps should be macro only and rush maps just don't work for tournament level play, but we'd really like to explore map variety which includes trying out different versions of rush maps.
Edited by Aldrexus on 5/17/2013 5:06 PM PDT
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One other thing on maps is there was a really interesting suggestion for Klontas Mire. This map is turning out to be really rush friendly as expected, but one downside was that it also encourages timing all in attacks. So the suggestion was to add destructible towers on the bridge area so that early game rushes are still possible, but all in attacks are delayed in the early mid game.
Weeeee!!!

I like this, but it would hurt zerg timings the most and terran timings the least.
Edited by silkenat on 5/15/2013 10:55 AM PDT
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As a zerg player, it only took me 1 game to play on Klontas Mire before I knew to thumb it down. Not sure if destructible towers are going to help. Pretty sure it's always going to be a down voted map for me.

Star stations being corss spawn only would be really nice though.
Edited by Loki on 5/15/2013 10:54 AM PDT
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Put DF Atlas in the map pool....
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Posts: 314
I vetoed Klontas Mire after one game. I am not a huge fan of the design in general and that bridge seems completely unnecessary. The cross positions on star station will be really nice for zerg so I'm not complaining :D, not sure how it will effect the other races.
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I'm certain that the majority of players have Klontas Mire blocked. In my opinion it is a horrible map because of that bridge making all-ins and rushers way to strong. Even with the destructible rocks added in I doubt that will give players incentive to unblock the map. It would be better to remove that map and add in another one because it is hated a lot.

The Star Station change is good, I think a lot of people will like it a lot.

Would it be so bad in trying to incorporate smaller maps like those in the early stages of WOL? I dislike only having huge or macro only maps and the smaller maps would add in some more spice to the game.
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05/15/2013 10:47 AMPosted by Dayvie
about making Star Station diagonal only spawn positions to make the map more fair in all the matchups.
This is a MUCH NEEDED change because right now, close spawns makes it IMPOSSIBLE to play macro PvZ because Protoss has no real defensible 3rd base, and if Zerg turtles with Swarm Hosts, you cannot even counter-attack with prism play effectively, because it takes too long to go around the entrenched army, and a more direct path necessitates going VIA a forest of spore crawlers or fast hydras or corruptors, which makes it impossible to whittle down an entrenched Zerg.

Cross spawns will make this kind of play more dynamic, and allow more fluid interactions whereby Protoss or any other race can use mobility to their advantage when required.

Another proposed suggestion I have for this map is to place collapsible rocks at the side 3rd expansions on the ramp that leads to them from the low grounds, while allowing the watch-tower path still accessible to make it fairer for Protoss to defend his 3rd base, when Terran and Zerg don't require as much walling because Zerg don't need walls per se, and Terran has siege tanks + Widow Mines, while Protoss has none of those zoning tools, meaning they have to utilize buildings, but the space is so big, it is extremely hard to create a choke in time vs Zerg on that map, and 3 access paths to that 3rd base location exacerbates the issue. Adding collapsible rocks on the ramp leading to the low ground expansion below the side watch towers will help Protoss a little on that map, while still leaving at least 2 open paths, and giving Protoss time to mine from the 3rd base enough to create enough army to defend it and eventually take the low ground expansion.

We know that most people think all 1v1 maps should be macro only and rush maps just don't work for tournament level play, but we'd really like to explore map variety which includes trying out different versions of rush maps.
While the intention is good, I think that realistically, EXCLUSIVELY rush maps are bad by design. They aren't going to be used by tournaments, because tournaments are looking for maps where BOTH rush and macro styles can thrive.

Broodwar maps catered to that and ALLOWED rushing while still being macro-focused. THIS is the standard that maps should be following, because this is what creates more interesting games, as you do not know what to really expect from a player when both styles are encouraged, but rush-focused maps like Klontas are bad by design.

The reason why is you can ONLY rush, which makes it kind of predictable and boring, because solid players like pros will just either veto the map because it is limited in scope and does not help them in practice, and tournaments will discard this map since the pros don't want to play on it, but if you were to make rushing still viable, but cater to long macro games at the same time, by positioning easy to take and DEFEND 3rd base expansions on both sides of the map, while making bridge paths (more than 1-2) to link the 2 sides, and keeping the 2 mains far enough to allow adequate response times (or, as you mentioned, adding destructible towers to lengthen the rush time enough to allow scouting reactions to be on time), then you would see more interest in the map style, and even pros and tournaments would find it more interesting, because past the initial rush phase, there are still opportunities for macro games.

I apologize for the small wall of text, but I hope this shed a little light on why rush-focused maps are considered to be poorly designed.

Thanks.

EDITED for clarity...
Edited by Zamara on 5/15/2013 11:11 AM PDT
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Posts: 158
I'm with everyone else on Klontas, I think the towers could help but it's likely to stay a downvote for me. But I'd try it again with the towers change, it's really the only two player map that I ever veto so that might redeem it. I understand the desire to add diversity to the map pool; while it might have been a miss with this map, I appreciate the effort.

The Star Station change is a really good one. It's already kind of a rough Protoss map with the wide open third, but if you could expand laterally to close off one attack path and keep your Xel' Naga then I think it would be much more balanced. I'm a big fan of limiting spawn locations on 4 player maps in general (either forced cross or no vertical like Zerus), it's rough when you 9 scout and still miss a six pool or get walled out of a terran base. If you take that hit in your economy you should at least get something out of it.
Edited by ZArTassaTul on 5/15/2013 11:10 AM PDT
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Posts: 285
I've always thought that star station would be an awesome map if it was cross spawn only... but as is, I find myself having a hard time not vetoing it.

I think this would be a great decision. I don't think it detracts from the map at all; only enhances.
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I don't know if anyone knows ths but on Klontas Mire you can put pylons in the bridge to stop any early pool from zerg because they have to kill 2 pylons or go around.
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1. Liking the Star Station change. Will definitely improve

2. I immediately vetoed Klontas Mire as I am not fond of rush map or the design. However, I am willing to try it with the rocks included.
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EDIT:
What I would really like to see happen, and I am sure others would agree, is some sort of contest. Have the community map makers work their magic, and hold a vote somehow(tl would probably be easiest) choosing the winners. There are several amazing map makers out there. And the game shouldn't waste free talent like that.
Edited by KingGodFonzy on 5/15/2013 11:14 AM PDT
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+1 on making Star Station cross spawn only!

The map with the bridge should just be ditched, the bottom half of the map is rather irrelevent with the close spawns

Edit: still waiting for the TvZ fix
Edited by ScoobySnacks on 5/15/2013 11:18 AM PDT
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EDIT:
What I would really like to see happen, and I am sure others would agree, is some sort of contest. Have the community map makers work their magic, and hold a vote somehow(tl would probably be easiest) choosing the winners. There are several amazing map makers out there. And the game shouldn't waste free talent like that.
^^^

This is an EXCELLENT idea!
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Edited by ScoobySnacks on 5/15/2013 11:17 AM PDT
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We know that most people think all 1v1 maps should be macro only and rush maps just don't work for tournament level play, but we'd really like to explore map variety which includes trying out different versions of rush maps.

I don't think this is an accurate representation of our opinions. There's a difference between a map that can encourage rush play and a map that has a 30 second rush distance or less that forces rush play.

We don't want every map to be like Whirlwind or Metropolis. We just don't want maps like Steppes of War, close position Metalopolis, etc.
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Guess im the only one who likes Klontas mire,but then again I loved bloodbath in broodwar.If you take out Klontas could you plz bring back bloodbath.I mean Bloddbath back basically like BW form
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Posts: 65
I like using the spawn positions on Star Station to my advantage but I can't say that I'm surprised that this change is going to happen.

I have Klontas Mire vetoed because the map is a little too dark and I can't see on it without turning the gamma up to a ridiculous value.
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Posts: 172
I have only played 2 games on KM but it's by far my favorite map. (I lost both games.) It's just so different, tbh variety is a lot better. The change suggested is a smart one. GG all around blizz!!
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Posts: 851
Sounds awesome!
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