StarCraft® II

Protoss buff balance test map

Posts: 322
I still think that gateway units in general are too weak. I don't know that buffing gimmicky things like warp prisms are the way to go when the ground-based protoss armies that are based entirely around keeping one or two key units alive are the problem, imo. It's a problem because the compositions get fragile should the key units (colossus, templar) die. I do agree that maybe protoss is not as competitively viable but that's because the skill ceiling is lower so the potential to play toss is less in comparison to Terran And Zerg.
Posts: 9,750
The changes that would probably make protoss aggressive surgical warp prism strikes + low unit defense work are these:
- add in the reaver
- add in the corsair
- possibly nerf mutalisks regen (not sure if this would be necessary)

Only the third would be balanced in this game.
The Reaver is a difficult unit to balance in this game, and it was only balanced in StarCraft Brood War because of the poor Scarab pathing. Reavers would not be balanced in StarCraft II.

Corsairs will never be back. Air-to-air splash damage is problematic because it allows a race to mass one unit to deal with all opposing air plays. This is why splash damage air units were removed, and never revisited.

The third choice is possible, and there are several ways to do this. The best way would be to implement the Mutalisk regeneration in a similar manner to the campaign where the regeneration bonus only takes effect if the Mutalisks are out of combat for a period of time.
Posts: 18
You must be kidding me, protoss is the strongest race under top level, how do we deal with protoss if it will be even stronger now? Blizzard is awful im switching to protoss.
Posts: 60
How about changing then the overlord speed buff to increase the overlord speed even more. Even with speed the overlord is still outrun way by the other drop units.

Then we would have speed medivacs, speed Warp Prism and speed overlords. All good for Harassing
Posts: 5,014
05/28/2013 10:31 AMPosted by Reno
You don't have delay yourself either. You can just drop normally and use the warp function in situations where you feel safe and to refill drops.

Without the warp-ins, Protoss drops are insignificant compared to Terran drops, except for High Templar Storming Mineral lines, or DTs in specific instances. Occasionally really good Warp Prism micro drops with a Colossus or Immortals can be worth it, but it is rare.
Posts: 1,181
Warp Prisms starting off with the upgraded speed

This is fine, TvP is my worst matchup. I only have one suggestion. Make the dang maps so there isn't a peninsula when you can warp in dts lol.
Posts: 973
Protoss is not underperforming.

Here is the Korean winrate since release.

PvT: 50.42%
PvZ: 57.42%
Posts: 973
More data to show that Protoss is not underperforming:
Posts: 142
I really don't agree with the change mainly because of mid game protoss and how powerful FFing the ramp is. Drop 1 sentry from a warp prism and you can instantly win a game and its impossible for a Zerg to stop. With speed this is worse because they can drag your army out of position and then be in your main 2 seconds later and if you have a slightly less mobile army like roach hydra you will never ever stop it. There are already instant ways a protoss can win games if they aren't scouted like DT or 7 gate or sentry immortal all in without giving them one that is impossible to counter or scout. If this change is added it will destabilize the match up so much id say Zerg will end up with 30% win rate afterwards without changes like giving burrowed movement to roach for free or something to make sure a Zerg will have a way to get around ramp blocks.
Posts: 2,560
yes warp prisms are why protoss is underperforming... not because Swarmhosts are too strong.
Posts: 8
All I see this doing is increase the power of protoss allins which are farily powerful even now. Units that couple with a prism like zealots are only useful for harass after charge. DTs can be easily countered with detection. The units that can deal good splash like colossus/templars do little damage with a single volley to be useful in a drop.

Sometimes good harass units are those that one can use to harass effectively and then combine it up with their army later for some extra damage. Oracle is great at harass but not very good at being part of an army since it dies in 2 seconds. Medivac drops, roach/ling drops runbies etc. are good at harassing for that reason.

I think the problem with protoss as a whole is that there is little incentive to split their army up into smaller groups for harass till they get sufficient templars with storms. One easy way I think to do this is to change the colossus a bit. Here is what I feel should be done
- Reduce Colossus speed down to about 1/2 of what it is right now.
- Buff its damage output by 50%. It should essentially 1 shot marines and workers at that point.

What I am hoping this does is that it will make it a very good defensive tool allowing protoss to defend with lesser units, especially against terran drops. It will also be good at harassing couple with these speed prisms. However it should absolutely suck at marching all across the map in a deathball. For example if terran/zerg engage a protoss army in middle of the map they should be able to kite that army al the way across the map without much issue. I know this may open up a few timings and all that may need a bit of tweaking but I feel this is worth trying out on a test map.
Edited by Whrloo on 5/28/2013 11:25 AM PDT
Posts: 2
Personally I think that this type of buff is in the right direction. Protoss play has become very passive and really doesn't rely on playing a fast paced harassment or aggressive style game. Subsequently its actually quite boring to watch for many spectators.

Default warp prism speed will definitely become one of the most powerful tools for Protoss if this buff comes forward. It might even be too strong. Regardless of its balance, I hope this patch goes through the beta test maps. I think speed medivacs have shown us that if given enough time, fast drop ship play styles can be dealt with to an extent. In this sense, I think a dropship buff might actually be very safe to add.
Posts: 1,582
05/28/2013 10:50 AMPosted by lolfail
About protoss underperforming, I'm curious what metric they are using. Toss aggression is already pretty strong. In ZvP in a SH attrition war, whoever is smarter with flanking or placement of their energy units can determine who wins those games, and in PvT, well, honestly I don't know much about that.

Check RO8 in WCS KR and WCS EU. That's what they meant.

Ro8 WCS KR Code S was 2/2/4 P/T/Z, 1/1/2 who qualified

Ro8 WCS EU was 1/4/3, 0/2/2

I don't really think these results are good to look at. It would be better to look at the PvX games and see who actually played better and who won. We don't know if player talent is evenly distributed among the races, and if the way the brackets/groups were set up impacted this.
Posts: 3,224
05/28/2013 11:21 AMPosted by Poo
Personally I think that this type of buff is in the right direction. Protoss play has become very passive and really doesn't rely on playing a fast paced harassment or aggressive style game. Subsequently its actually quite boring to watch for many spectators.
To his point, I like it. I think diverse and dynamic play is a good thing and if you can buff it in such a way that promotes smaller but more frequent engagements, I'm all for it. We need more of this and less deathball.

This is a little off topic, but it would be nice to actually see some balance numbers so we can either stop all the qq'ing and move on. These forums over the last few weeks have been unbearable regardless of what the external numbers are saying. If you look at all the statistics and tournaments combined with your statement that it's balanced at all levels, it seems that we are in a really good place except for Protoss who seems to be underperforming at the very highest levels of play. That may or may not be due to metagame.

So if it is indeed balanced, which everything indicates yes, then please post them so we can stop hearing all the constant qq'ing that seems to be never ending and completely unconstructive conversation.
Edited by picKLes on 5/28/2013 11:24 AM PDT
Posts: 242
speed buff for prism huh? nothing will change, trust me. the Protoss's problem is all about gateway units. even you get better prism, u still have nothing good to drop. zealots can't even catch a scv, stalkers need 5hits for one scv, campare the efficency with marines. that's !@#$ing rediculous.

zealots need a speed buff before the charge, at least faster than marines.
stalkers need a dmg buff vs light armors, make it 12dmg at beginning vs all would be great. and give the each upgrade +2dmg. roaches are +2, mauruders are +2, only stalkers. the most expensive unit with the lowest potential. heavy armor dmg bunus is !@#$ing useless for them, since immotals were doing better jobs. but against light, early game marines, hellions, zerglings, mid game hellbats, mutalisks, are all problem for protoss. buff stalkers is the main surgery u gotta do to finaly fix the balance.

for Portoss all-ins , you gotta do something on warp-in pylons at front line, not on the gate-way units. make them easy to be discovered, or easy to be taken down.
Edited by IllllllllllI on 5/28/2013 1:41 PM PDT
Posts: 1
Why are you whining about "then Zerg needs this or Terran needs this because you get this".

Your race is already performing better than Protoss, if you read the topic. We NEED a buff /you need a nerf because the game is slightly unbalanced in your race favour.

I think it's a interesting change. Speedprism can be very strong and the earlygame would'nt change so much (you still need to warpin units, right? And do you have 25 warpgates @ 8 min? hmm...).

It's not like you going to massup in Prism's as you do with medivacs. You will get 2 at the most.
Posts: 3
we def need warpprism speed! but better would be nerfing medivacs or hellbats
Posts: 9,507
Without the warp-ins, Protoss drops are insignificant compared to Terran drops, except for High Templar Storming Mineral lines, or DTs in specific instances. Occasionally really good Warp Prism micro drops with a Colossus or Immortals can be worth it, but it is rare.

You underestimate protoss drops. 4 or 8 zealots are going to do damage and force troops to be pulled to deal with them.
And on top of that you have to use your head if you feel that rooting down to warp in more is a risk than just drop force them to pull troops and find a safer place to start warping in.

The speed will allow a protoss to hit more areas faster and since the don't have to go all the way back to reload and keep dropping. The drops while not as strong can come at a rapid speed in that regard.
Edited by Reno on 5/28/2013 11:30 AM PDT
Posts: 2,354
Here is the Korean winrate since release.

< 500 total games is statistically irrelevant. A single player or a some good players can throw off win rates by a lot.

Also, You have to remember that many Zergs were banking on Infestor/BL, but that's gone now, so they had to reinvent the meta. The same thing happened with terran after the queen buff.
Posts: 3,162
I actually really like this change. An all-in with a warp prism isn't going to be all that much stronger - but warp prism based harass will be significantly stronger. This will allow for more exciting games where toss does things other than all-in or turtle to a deathball.

Good idea, though it will push zerg even further towards going mutalisks in ZvP in order to effectively deal with drops, making the mutalisk zerg's best tech choice in ZvP, ZvT, and ZvZ. I think zerg could use a little diversity outside of mutalisks in their matchups.
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