StarCraft® II

Protoss buff balance test map

Posts: 894
I just thought of something! replace the warp prism speed upgrade with a new survivability upgrade called "Prismatic Phasing" (or something that's better, I don't really care). The warp prism could use this ability (while in flight mode) to "phase out" for 2 seconds making it either cloaked or invincible or both. It would be a neat survivability buff so that It wouldn't get shot down almost immediately every time.

I would prefer cloak since invulnerability would be broken versus turrets.


god that's a beautiful idea

I feel like giving them the speed upgrade is way too strong. You shouldn't affect the warp prism, it is fine where it is.

You guys haven't seen it often, but some players do warp prism tactics where they lift sentries into the main and forcefield you out of your base. They are free to kill your entire main, which will likely also be where all your tech is and a huge portion of your economy. There is literally nothing you can do when this happens unless you just happen to have a round of units coming out of your main. If you guys buffed the warp prism, be prepared to make a nerf for this.

sOs and Rain (off his Proleague record) been having tons of success as Protoss. As Demuslim has said, if at least one person is having success, then nobody has the right to complain. Same with Life at the start of hots.


all you need is map vision and an ovie scout.. come on man
Posts: 3
ahahah ur retarded....if u die to those !@#$s....ur just bad as hell...hah u truelymake me laugh
Posts: 9
You are kidding right blizzard? just wow
Posts: 894
I just thought of something! replace the warp prism speed upgrade with a new survivability upgrade called "Prismatic Phasing" (or something that's better, I don't really care). The warp prism could use this ability (while in flight mode) to "phase out" for 2 seconds making it either cloaked or invincible or both. It would be a neat survivability buff so that It wouldn't get shot down almost immediately every time.

I would prefer cloak since invulnerability would be broken versus turrets.


god that's a beautiful idea

I feel like giving them the speed upgrade is way too strong. You shouldn't affect the warp prism, it is fine where it is.

You guys haven't seen it often, but some players do warp prism tactics where they lift sentries into the main and forcefield you out of your base. They are free to kill your entire main, which will likely also be where all your tech is and a huge portion of your economy. There is literally nothing you can do when this happens unless you just happen to have a round of units coming out of your main. If you guys buffed the warp prism, be prepared to make a nerf for this.

sOs and Rain (off his Proleague record) been having tons of success as Protoss. As Demuslim has said, if at least one person is having success, then nobody has the right to complain. Same with Life at the start of hots.


all you need is map vision and an ovie scout.. come on man

So, first of all, this will indeed buff all of the existing TvP all-ins involving warp prisms.

Second of all, has the balance team taken appropriate measures for TvP early game issues? In case these issues have not somehow reached blizzard here they are:

Early game TvP Balance Issues:
Right now the mothership core allows Protoss to essentially not ever take damage from any Terran harrass in the first 7-10 minutes of the game.

The problem? Protoss has 10+ different all-in and 1 base variations that can immediately win the game for the Protoss in the first 10 minutes vs Terran.

Something is out of line here with TvP early game. Terran has no way now to kill Protoss early game, allowing Protoss to be greedier with chronoboosting upgrades, as well as allowing Protoss to "reach lategame" much easier with advantages.

Why is this not currently being addressed? It is not only "foreign Terran noobs" that have issue with this, as many korean Terrans/teams have also seemed to express that there is an issue with TvP, specifically with the mothership core.

The mothership core 6-7 minute planetary fortresses per base is much like the queen buff you guys at blizzard had given in wings of liberty which allowed Zerg to suddenly be able to survive ALL forms of aggression and reach their broken "brood/infestor" much faster.

List of Protoss 1-base all-ins:
3 gate blink stalker into later expo -> invincible with mocore, also done faster with mocore high ground vision

4 gate blink stalker -> same as above, but more all-in

3 gate robo -> mocore
3 gate robo proxied variation
4 gate vanilla
4 gate vanilla with 3 proxied gateways
proxy oracle, can get a freewin
in-base fake macro toss with in-base oracle -> can get freewin, invincible to counter attack via mocore planetary nexus

DT opening -> can result in freewin
Proxy DT opening -> freewin or huge advantage
4 gate warp prism -> will be buffed with arbitrary warp prism buff being proposed
Fake all-ins into standard protoss macro + greed -> mocore makes P invincible here

The list goes on. The previous Terran all-ins that could do damage to protoss? All nullified by planetary nexus.

You, as a company, cannot legitimately and arbitrarily buff something like Protoss's warp prism until you balance out TvP early game issues so that the game is not so poker oriented and so the cost-risk values for each race are more brought in line with each other.

Protoss has various ways to immediately and outright win the game vs Terran, and Terran has no current retaliatory options due to the mothership core planetary nexus.

Any arbitrary buff Protoss on Blizzard's part without having identified and resolved the above balance issues is simply negligence on your company's part and a huge smack in the face to the community.

Please consult Terran korean pros as well as Protosses so that you guys understand the above balance issues that you currently have been ignoring or simply are not speaking of to the public due to the fervor of the previous "T OP" from the community.

Thanks.

also note: TvP past the mid-game is pretty much perfectly balanced. Only early game is a balance issue currently for Terran players due to the wide variety of 1 base all-ins Protoss can do to outright win the game or secure advantages that snowball into 3/3 chronoboosted upgrades vs 2/2 Terran.

My only suggestion to the balance team would be to remove the engineering bay requirement to construct a missile turret, as this helps alleviate issues of proxy oracles or random proxied dark shrines that can outright win the game with little to no effort.


3 gate blink is not invincible, you can beat me with it, but mvp can destroy you with it. It gets beaten plenty
Posts: 56
Dear Dayvie, have you thought about increasing overall supply so that players can actually saturate more than 3 bases?
Posts: 894
I think changing the Oracle will be a better step. It gets shut down easy with one static defense. Maybe increase range by one so it can pick off corner workers.


this needs to happen I think, then we'll see if it's imba and needs to be reverted

toss needs to win, we can nerf something later but right now I think I fully agree there needs to be a pretty serious change
Posts: 315
..... well, warp prism speed buff is ok... but nerf protoss dt harras late game if u do this...


Screw that, i would rather deal with DT's than Immortals. If Blizzard removed their harden shields, i would be on board with any buff they did to toss.
Posts: 14
This is stupid. Already if the protoss army can FF's a zergs ramp 80%(guessing) of the time the toss wins.
With the speed boost now we need to put up more static defense in our mineral, ramp, edge of base.

If you want to increase the speed of the wp, then just get rid of the speed boost upgrade and raise the base rate buy a small % like you did with the OV speed
Posts: 5,959
05/28/2013 11:46 AMPosted by Columbo
Dude you have mutas. Zerg units are generally way faster than almost all of the other races units. Given that speed overlords aren't super quick, but they are still viable.


The closest analogues to mutalisks would be phoenixes and banshees, not speed prisms and medivacs.


Point being that most protoss units are incredibly slow in comparison or lack range. Phoenix is about the only exception and its niche.
Posts: 10
Yeah i'm going to go off on a limb here and say protoss need no buffs, they only need to figure out what they are doing at the pro level.
Posts: 2
I think you should really take a look at the hellbat again, particularly at fact that it can be healed by medivacs. Hellbat drops are already so insanely effective, because of the large splash radius and the fact that they 2 shot workers and zerglings just makes it effective enough, the heal is just adding insult to injury and makes it literally impossible to defend with zergling queen only. since hellbats are only a mineral investment, it's literally impossible to be unefficient with a hellbat drop.
Posts: 1,550
Excellent change imo. Protoss desperately need the boost in their harrassment capabilities.

Also lol at all the zergs crying for overlord buffs... Really? The mutalisk isnt good enough for you that you want your ZERO supply dropships to be on par with the other races? What is it about zerg that attracts the dumbest people?
Posts: 505
Dear Dayvie, have you thought about increasing overall supply so that players can actually saturate more than 3 bases?


I'd be down to try this. Or maybe 6m 1g maps. That would be interesting.
Posts: 2,817
Everyone saying this is only going to help all-ins blah blah... explain a protoss unit you could buff that would not help all-ins?

The only units that aren't involved in some form of protoss all-in are like, HTs/tempests which do not need buffs, and carriers which, well buffing carriers doesnt necessarily help with their plan of pushing the game into more aggression and more action as carriers are the unit that requires the most turtling in the game to get out by far.

I think people need to just get some perspective on how much difference these changes actually make to the all-ins. This is probably stronger than the oracle speed/accel buffs would have been for all-ins (which people also complained about...), but the impact overall is very minor.
Edited by Pride on 5/28/2013 12:04 PM PDT
Posts: 894
I kinda agree zergs are being a little.. insane about things

Life and so many other zergs have been tearing up the pro scene for a good while now. Terran had their run before that, but in truth that was before zergs found out how good ultras/blords/infestors were AND i attribute a lot of that to the fact that people used to think idra was one of the top zergs.
Posts: 1,755
Not sure that I like this approach but it doesn't hurt to test. Prisms are already cheap and the upgrade doesn't cost that much if I remember correctly. Maybe just lower the research time? I can see prism play with sentries blocking ramps becoming OP with this kind of a buff.
Posts: 3,224
I’m not sure why anyone is against the idea of promoting smaller but more frequent engagements rather than Protoss turtling until they get there big 200/200 death ball and then decide to move out. As long as, it doesn't completely wreck the balance.

I also think slower balance changes by Blizzard is absolutely the way to go!
Posts: 303
annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd zerg gets shafted again. GG
Posts: 2,817
Biggest change I would expect out of this is probably a lot more immortal drops in pvp, since it drastically reduces the gas cost (300 if you include robo bay).

05/28/2013 12:04 PMPosted by ScareCrow
Maybe just lower the research time?


I don't think this does much. The upgrade is quite good and it's something you want lategame in most matches in my opinion - making it faster wouldn't change how it is used. It's already really fast if you chrono it, and unless you're going specifically for fast immortal drops (in which case you're fully chronoing it so you wouldn't expect any buff to shave more than 10 seconds off), you always delay getting that till after you have extended thermal lance.

Taking 300 gas off it and making it so you don't need to waste robo bay time on it though doesn't just take away the build time of the upgrade, but also of the robo bay itself AND extended thermal lance in most games. Speed prisms would come a LOT faster in most games.
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